Weapon length advantages

[ryanhall]

this is like many people who believe he can "take a shot" from a boxer, or a kick from a tae kwon do fighter.

Gee, let me think...ok, you're still wrong.

Can't take a shot against a good fighter? Think again. You don't just stroll in with your chin out and expect to be fine. You cover, close, and smother. I don't care who you are; if you punch someone on the top of the skull with power, you are going to shatter your hand. Gloves protect everybody, not just the guy being hit. Ever see Tyson fight in his prime? You think those weren't quality fighters he was rushing and knocking out? When you close range quickly, it is very difficult for the opponent to maintain distance and strike with power and accuracy. Add an adrenaline dump, and stick man is carved like a Thanksgiving turkey. Weapons with sharp edges are inherently superior to weapons without them. Why do you think people stopped using clubs and picked up swords and daggers?

i challenge you to ask a tae kwon do fighter, boxer or eskrima fighter to give you what ever he got, and then try to jump in there

I have done this, and I'm still here writing to you in complete sentences, so I guess things didn't go so badly for me.

its very laughable when people passed off a rattan stick as just a small skinny stick you can take. i guarantee there is no man alive who is not drugged up who can take a hit from a decent eskrimador's rattan.

Firstoff, the operative phrase here is "not drugged up." Secondly, it is obvious that you haven't run into too many naturally tough people. Rage, adrenaline, and a desire to hurt you at all costs can make an evil mother f#cker one hard dude to deal with. No man alive? Do you think that people drop with one bullet? Well, a lot of times, they don't. If a bullet can't always fell someone in one hit, how well do you think your rattan stick will do? If one was to simply stand there and allow you to belt them in the temple with your rattan stick, then they would probably drop. But if they are coming in quickly and you don't get them just right, you'd better hope that punyo shot will be enough to get the job done--wait, you'll be dead from repeated stabs to the torso. Did you know that an inch of penetration can be enough to cause you to go into shock? Can your stick do that? I didn't think so.

its very laughable when people passed off a rattan stick as just a small skinny stick you can take

Being hit with rattan is certainly not fun, and it's easy to have a bone broken in the process, but you grossly underestimate how much damage the human body is capable of taking while still remaining combatively functional.

[haumana2000]

Kuntawman, stick vs knife, there are many situational , and environmental factors coming into play in this scenario. Once you are inside the arc of the stick strike, the knife has the advantage. Now, also, the stick would not be as effective in a confined area. If we are talking a pre-determined match with open area, and such, then of course I praise the stick as the almighty tool to have. But each weapon has a distance where it can counter another. I am a little biased toward the stick, but I do know that in a fast confinded space, the knife would have the advantage.

[thekuntawman]

i am not saying the stick is superior to the blade, i never said that. i am not saying a guy will drop after being hit with a stick. but for whatever strategy you THINK you will do after "taking a shot" you are not going to do, if you get hit with a strong hit, wether its to the head, forearm, knee, groin, and even (depending to your level of pain tolerance) the body or thigh.

experience of sharp pain will stop you dead in your tracks, especially if you never train to have pain tolerance, and most theory people dont. yeah you might bounce back and shake it off, but i dont think many people will get that chance if they get hit, and over and over. spend more time sparring, and you will see how difficult it is to pull off "taking a hit".

now, i agree that inside the close range the knife has the advantage, but without good timing and without an opponent who knows how to use his advantage of distance, you might never get the chance to use this weapon, and you will have to rely on luck. and this has very little to do with how much space you have, because space depends if you really know how to use close range stick fighting.

and ryanhall, where did all this attitude come from? did i say something to piss you off? i dont even know you. anyway, my posting had nothing to do with stick versus knife, i was talking about people who think, all i have to do is take a shot and then go in and do ____.

But if they are coming in quickly and you don't get them just right

i have no arguement there. i am talking about the people who do get hit "just right". not about ending the fight either, just stopping somebody's counter attack.

when i am talking about getting hit and not being able to take it, i am only talking about doing what you planned to do, after you get hit. its not easy. the only way it is easy, is if the guy misses or does not hit you with good power. but if you want to "close the gap" and do ____whatever, and you get hit HARD with a kick, punch, and especially a kick, your technique will only work well, if you have good pain tolerance, or if you dont, in your dreams.

[moromoro]

ryanhall

your comments in regard to the stick vs Knife are not entirely true infact ( you have simply followed government regulations and belief. the law classes bladed weapons as more dangerous than a stick)

but this is the FMA forum and some of us are well versed in FMA and have been training for close to 20 years or more.....

the stick is far more supperior than the knife.... iam not talking about pussy rattan iam talking about kamagong and other hardwood sticks

true knife fighters where looked down upon in the phillipines against ESKRIMADORS.... eskrimadors and their garrote's where always far more superior...

i have herd people saying their system is based on knife and bla bla bla but they have never faced a true eskrimador with a garrote...

in eskrima the knife is a lesser weapon than the stick... dont cry this is true....

you also claim to have foughten eskrimadors

I have done this, and I'm still here writing to you in complete sentences, so I guess things didn't go so badly for me.

oh yeah who!!!!!!!

read what the kuntawman said on his last post...

you take a shot with a hardwood stick and its all over.... (maybe you could do something against someone with little skill) but against someone who is an expert your history....

he will be after your knife hand first... EVEN IF YOU HAVE MASTERED THE PAYONG SYSTEM HE WILL BREAK YOUR LEADING HAND..

YOU HAVE A LOT OF GROUND TO COVER IN ORDER TO STAB HIM....

also i see your attitude to believing the knife is supperior to the stick as beign someone who has not sparred or fought with excellent people. spar with your GM youll change your attitude quick fast....

the whole notion of a skilled ghter beign supperior to a skilled eskrimador. is a joke.... not only is it a joke but it is disrespectfull to every eskrima/ arnis GM living and dead....

your comments are childish and ignorant.... and by reading your post you say you have beaten eskrimadors... but i doubt it.....

i think you have been watching too many slasher horror movies..........now thoise guys are good with the knife

[krys]

Ryanhall:

I have done this, and I'm still here writing to you in complete sentences, so I guess things didn't go so badly for me.

BECAUSE MY HEAD IS HARDER THAN STONE....

or was it just in a dream?


Who are you to insult fmas?
How long have you been doing martial arts?
I have never heard such a nonsense even from a beginner.....

You think you can take a blow on the head and still be able to think clearly enough to use your knive efficiently?
I get the impression you have never been into a real fight.....

First of all if somebody is going to attack you with a "Kali" rattan stick in the street chances are he knows how to use it and then you are in big troubles.
As moromoro said there is a lot of ground to cover to stab him, even if he is not skilled he will have enough time to give you other shots. And then even at close range the stick could still win if your opponent knows how to use it at close range.




Stop insulting our martial arts and start to practice, outside the web I mean..... Most of us on this forum are doing filipino martial arts for many years now, do not waste our time with beginner's talk.....


Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

[ryanhall]

Krys and moromoro (not theKuntawMan),

Is there something collectively wrong with your brains? I'm usually more civil than this, but stop jerking each other off and engage your brains for a second. You're so busy defending your arts that I never maligned in the first place that you don't even see the words that I have written.

Who are you to insult fmas?

Firstoff, I didn't insult FMAs. I said that a blade is a more dangerous weapon than a stick. You people seem to have glossed over my comments to join in some bitching convention. I'm not talking about a duel here, gentlemen. I'm talking about self-defense, and I can tell you that a knife is much more dangerous than a stick.

A knife is superior for the following reasons (and a few more that I can't think of right now:
1) It can be concealed
2) It has edges
3) It will cause you to lose blood, which can make you go into shock
4) The psychological intimidation factor is far greater than that of a piece of wood

true knife fighters where looked down upon in the phillipines against ESKRIMADORS.... eskrimadors and their garrote's where always far more superior...

For all your professed years of training, you don't write like an adult. More like a pissed off 13 year old.

As moromoro said there is a lot of ground to cover to stab him, even if he is not skilled he will have enough time to give you other shots. And then even at close range the stick could still win if your opponent knows how to use it at close range.

Even an unskilled Eskrimador can defeat all comers? I may as well give up RBSD (of which FMA is a part) and boxing to take up the torch of the Phillipines. Long distance to cover? Oh, you mean the long distance of a foot and a half that would separate me and a fearsome and undefeatable Eskrimador in a bar or an alley? At that close range, the hand is fater than the eye. You could be stabbed before you even realized that I had a weapon out.

You think you can take a blow on the head and still be able to think clearly enough to use your knive efficiently?

I won't even bother responding to this idiocy. At the risk of using a schoolyard comeback, I believe that it is YOU who has never seen a real fight that involved a committed or chemically enhanced indivudual or two.

the whole notion of a skilled ghter beign supperior to a skilled eskrimador. is a joke.... not only is it a joke but it is disrespectfull to every eskrima/ arnis GM living and dead....

. Are you for real? Nobody with half a brain thinks that their art is undefeatable. I guess the point is moot because a western fencer with a thrusting sword would fillet a stick-wielding Eskrimador. Because the thrusting sword is a superior weapon. Or does the title "Eskrimador" give you the ability to beat anyone, not just knifers? If you give the edge to a piece of wood over a sword, it's about the same as saying that a flint lock rifle is superior to an M-16. Are you saying that?

your comments are childish and ignorant.... and by reading your post you say you have beaten eskrimadors... but i doubt it.....

I didn't say that I go around beating on Eskrimadors (you really have a bit of a thing for those guys, don't you?). I said that I was able to close the distance and repeatedly stab everyone I have ever trained with--not every time, but often enough.

And then even at close range the stick could still win if your opponent knows how to use it at close range.

Because it's SO likely that someone with a blunt object will beat someone with a sharp one when they are trading cuts and blows. You can't be serious.

TheKuntawMan,

Ah, the only one to respond intelligently.

spend more time sparring, and you will see how difficult it is to pull off "taking a hit".

You don't just waltz into range. Taking a direct hit is not an easy thing to do. However, it really isn't that difficult to move and smother without taking anything too heavy (this comes from quite a bit of experience sparring). Just watch a boxing match. Shitty boxers tend to get in close and clinch better ones, spoiling the show--and they do it without taking too many heavy shots. Thinking that you can consistently strike well enough to keep a knifer back is just as silly as saying "nobody can take me to the ground."

[moromoro]

Even an unskilled Eskrimador can defeat all comers? I may as well give up RBSD (of which FMA is a part) and boxing to take up the torch of the Phillipines. Long distance to cover? Oh, you mean the long distance of a foot and a half that would separate me and a fearsome and undefeatable Eskrimador in a bar or an alley? At that close range, the hand is fater than the eye. You could be stabbed before you even realized that I had a weapon out.

A skilled eskrimador will defeat a skilled KNIFE FIGHTER 99 times out of a hundred....

Firstoff, I didn't insult FMAs. I said that a blade is a more dangerous weapon than a stick.

YES AS I HAVE SAID THIS IS WHAT THE GOVERNMENT STATES AS WELL>>>>

BUT THAT THIS MEANS THAT it is a superior weapon NO, if you look at the advantages the stick has, the stick is superior to skilled hands.........

4) The psychological intimidation factor is far greater than that of a piece of wood

as an eskrimador you must be able to adapt an notice a superior weapon... a stick (hardwood) is far superior to the knife and if you are ARMED WITH A STICK YOU HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OVEWR THE KNIFER......

You could be stabbed before you even realized that I had a weapon out.

OH YES THE WISE GUY.. you also seem to fail to realise that if you do this your headed for a holiday......
now this is the most idiotic reply i have read...

the whole notion of a skilled ghter beign supperior to a skilled eskrimador. is a joke.... not only is it a joke but it is disrespectfull to every eskrima/ arnis GM living and dead....

that was meant to be knifefighter.......

your entire attitude is based on an idiotic and childish mentallity... it is a view of someone who has never faced anyone with half skill in eskrima.....

what ever art you do

RBSD

you must be a beginner at..... either that or your 12......
or your head is really harder that stone without a brain to boot....
if you think you could go someone with skill in eskrima with your knife..

ALSO YOU ARE THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF PEOPLE WHO THINK ESKRIMA IS ALL ABOUT RATTAN STICKS....WELL THINK AGAIN I GOTR NEWS FOR YOU

[moromoro]

for a moderator of the FMA forums you should have more respect for the pilipino martial arts!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[terry]

Moromoro, in light of your recent posts you are in no position to engage in a character debate.

And Krys, what kind of a man would stay as a guest of the Canete family for two months and then talk trash about them on the Internet? I would be ashamed to say such a thing. Even if the complaint of boasting is true, isn't this sin outweighed by the ugliness of publically ridiculing your host?

Frankly, Ryanhall, I think you should sitebann the lot of them. Time to take out the trash.

Terry

P.S.: Oh, and by the way, I've been hit in the head with a stick by guys that most eskrimadores would regard as credible fighters. In general, it hurt. (And getting hit on the tip of the ear is excruciating.) But it doesn't always take you out. One time it made my visual field wobble and flash but not go out. At the time I shrugged it off and said, "That was a good one" and continued. Another time some eskrima instructor--one of those few 'ugly pilipinos' that embarrass everybody else--thought that my skin was the wrong color for his liking. He escalated during a classroom drill and hit me as hard as he could in the left temple with a 1" piece of rattan (non-fighting density). It caused my eye to water and swell and left a nice mark, but it also made me mad. In any case, it didn't stop me from closing the gap and choking him into convulsions.

[moromoro]

eskrima uses hardwood not rattan for binunalay

Oh, and by the way, I've been hit in the head with a stick by guys that most eskrimadores would regard as credible fighters. In general, it hurt. (And getting hit on the tip of the ear is excruciating.) But it doesn't always take you out. One time it made my visual field wobble and flash but not go out. At the time I shrugged it off and said, "That was a good one" and continued. Another time some eskrima instructor--one of those few 'ugly pilipinos' that embarrass everybody else--thought that my skin was the wrong color for his liking. He escalated during a classroom drill and hit me as hard as he could in the left temple with a 1" piece of rattan (non-fighting density). It caused my eye to water and swell and left a nice mark, but it also made me mad. In any case, it didn't stop me from closing the gap and choking him into convulsions.

this is all fair and good but i think you are missing the point .....

REAL ESKRIMA DOESNT INVOLVE RATTAN.....
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN HIT IN THE TEMPLE, HEAD OR WEAPON HAND WITH KAMAGON FULL SPEED?? ALSO HIGH LEVEL ESKRIMA DOESNT INVOLVE 1-12 ONE HIT.. IT IS MULTIPLE HITTING AND VERY VERY HARD...........

PLEASE MODERATORS ANSWER THIS QUESTION, GO ON ANSWER.
SPEECHLESS ARENT YOU??

ARCHEALOGIST have peoven in Japan anyway that in battle the majority of people died from having their skulls crushed and not from stabs......

AS i have said in my previous post yes the government does calss the knife a more dangerous weapon than a stick and it is for good reason... in the hands of a untAINED MAN it IS more dangerous
but you have to look at it this way this is the FMA forum and some of us are REAL practitioners we have trained personally one on one with our GM and sparred with them one on one we have also had many experiences in the philippines...
FOR US FMARTIS the stick (not rattan boys but hardwood) is far far far superior than a knife.. it has been proven in history...



[

And Krys, what kind of a man would stay as a guest of the Canete family for two months and then talk trash about them on the Internet? I would be ashamed to say such a thing. Even if the complaint of boasting is true, isn't this sin outweighed by the ugliness of publically ridiculing your host?

firstly his post was aimed for me. i did not see any ridiculing in his post. i myself have nothing against the CANETE's for many years GM Navarro and noy Euling Canete (the first and true president of DP) tried to get tatay navarro in the DOCEPARES and they where best of friends noy euling would visit tatay every sunday.....
most practitioners problems is with cacoy canetes lies and boasting of such lies..... i was given a link about a bando GM and cacoy should also be featured in that link... most of the people he has said he has beaten dont even exist. also he claimed on beating Anciong Bacon and this Never never HAPPENDED...

Frankly, Ryanhall, I think you should sitebann the lot of them. Time to take out the trash.

OK SITEBaN US FOR PROVING YOU WRONG. thats very sporting of you. and it shows your true colors....

FINAL POINTS OF ANALYSIS

for an eskrimador

STICK IS ALWAYS PREFERABLE TO A KNIFE..

KNIFE FIGHTERS ARE LOOKED DOWN UPON..(BY SOME ESKRIMA GM'S)

ALSO TO THOSE WHO DONT KNOW. DUELS AND FIGHTS ARE FOUGHT WITH HARDWOOD STICKS. NOT RATTAN YES IT IS TRUE....
also when sparring with GM abrian i have been hit with rattan and you can still function and yes it is only a soft stick THATS WHY WE TRAIN WITH THEM.

again show a little bit more respect for THE FMA... it is very different from what you learn in the seminars....


terry

[thekuntawman]

if you have the speed and timing to avoid getting hit HARD with a stick, then, yeah you will probably kill an eskrimador. but it is hard enough for one eskrimador to get in on another one with a stick. i dont think many untrained people with a knife will have much luck. maybe against a seminar trained eskrima certified expert, but i cannot speak for them, i am talking about eskrima fighters.

the hit from a rattan stick (i challenge anyone who thinks my rattan wont hurt), and especially a kamagong, bahi or cocobolo (or metal pipe, or crowbar, etc) will stop you from entering. not saying it will end the fight, even though a broken forearm will do that imo. but if you are rushing in to stab or grapple and you get hit FULL POWER with a stick to the head or arm, only luck will get you in.

but like i said, if you have the speed and timing, or luck to close the distance before you get hit, or you dont get hit hard, then of course the knife will probably end it.

[Reactor]

This thread has digressed somewhat from the original question which posits that the protagonists are of equal skill.

Sure we can argue ad infinitum that it depends on this or that, but really under such conditions there can be no answer.

So the only way to answer this question is to isolate the one element that the poster inquires about.

Therefore, assuming both protagonists are equally skilled, both will lose, or both will win. Why? Because the person with the longer weapon will not let the person with the knife in. And the latter will not allow himself to be hit by the person with the stick or staff.

The real issue here of course is recognition of weapon attributes.

As was mentioned in one form or another earlier, it makes no more sense for a sniper to shoot someone point blank than it is for a person with a knife to engage someone with a longer weapon, assuming the wielder of the longer weapon is adept at keeping the knife-wielder at bay.

[ryanhall]

OK SITEBaN US FOR PROVING YOU WRONG. thats very sporting of you. and it shows your true colors

Where did you prove anyone wrong? You've been a broken record while writing in caps and failing to address most of the points of other posters.

Honestly, I do believe you to be a child.

YES AS I HAVE SAID THIS IS WHAT THE GOVERNMENT STATES AS WELL>>>>

You don't think they might have a reason, do you? The blade is the perferred weapon of street criminals the world over. The stick is not. Why might this be?

This thread is finished.