Karate

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Why do people insinuate that Karateka get beat all the time?
there are a fair share of Karateka that have done reasonably in MMA
The fact that they haven't become champions( well Bas Rutten did become a champion), doesn't make them bad

I mean come on man most of us wouldn't survive the first round with a guy like Semmy Schilt

I've seen the argument that Kyokushin isn't normal Karate
Isn't it, it has up and down walking basics, pre-aranged sparring and the robotic forms
Only difference the spar full contact without punching to the head

Bri: Why would an target be too low for a reverse punch, it can be excecuted at any level and from many stances not just at chudan level and from Zenkutsu dachi

There are a few basic puches that do fit in the useless catagory, oi tsuki or jun tsuki is one, it was usefull when the stances were short (toes of rear foot would touch same line as heel of front foot) but from the deeper stances they can't really be used
I would replace that with the tobi komi tsuki of Wado ( Jab like punch sliding forwards frontfoot first)

Going up and down the gym, in itself isn't bad, it's like doing the tables of 1 to 10 at school, later on you will use them to break down more complex problems
But too much walking not enough sliding in most Karategyms

As for selfdefence, No Art is good selfdefence, it is and added bonus that someone can better defend himself than an untrained person but that's all
Maybe Combatives is Good selfdefence but you have to keep training it because if you stopped training it for 10 years, and the step in a gym, a lot should be changed, if not it will be the future Karate

Only something in continuous development and that makes shure all the instructors are either part of the developement or are kept informed of them, can be and stay good selfdefence
Firts point isn't hard, it is the keeping all your instructors on one line that is hard to do

[Thai Bri]

Semmy Schilt. Is he the guy who only uses Karate in his fights? No. He's the guy who is well versed in techniques from other arts. You may remember the guys that only used Karate. They were the ones lying on their backs, looking at the ceiling.

Kyukushinkai may well have been a cut above other styles, because of their tougher trainng levels. But so what? Where has Kyukushinkai shone outside of the Karate world? No where. Their competitions, with no punches to the head, are ridiculous. How can you be "fighting" when you aren't throwing, or receiving, head shots? It changes the whole focus AWAY from reality.

A true reverse punch is landed with the back erect, and the shoulders rotating on a horizontal axis. The arm must follow the same direction to exploit full power, so the hand must be somewhere in the region of shoulder level, though both the head and the solar plexus heights are near enough. If the arm moves much lower (or higher, if your fighting a giant.....) then its akin to swinging your hips for a roundhouse kick, but then shooting your foot upwards. Your limb has to follow the same angle as your body, otherwise why are you moving the body?

Of course you can punch lower, if you get into one of those ridiculously low stances, or bend forwards at the torso. Either way you put yourself in a very precarious position.

"it can be excecuted at any level and from many stances not just at chudan level and from Zenkutsu dachi"

Yeah? I'll watch out for my tootsies then if I fight you. Nonsense

Going up and down the gym is NOT like doing the tables. Hitting bags and pads is like doing that, as you are practicing something useful in a useful way. Going up and down the gym is more akin practicing saying the numbers, without any real application whatsoever. As soon as you can say them, you should USE them.

I can't comment on your last two paragraphs. They make no sense. Perhaps you are just saying words at random.

.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Here we go again, everyone is allowed to crosstrain but karateka, MT fighters may crosstrain in groundfighting and still call themself MT fighters, BJJ people may crosstrain in MT and Boxing bus still be called BJJ
But as soon as a Karateka does it he should stop calling himself a Karateka

Doesn't matter anyhow, it is an effective standup art, just like MT is effective only for the standup part

Why do you think Karateka can't make a difference between competition and real life, I did non contact karate, but we do puch to the head, but I just do not do it often in the dojo, in the streets it was the first tartget I would go for ( one guy stilll felt the pain in his jaw after 2 weeks)

Bri even now you stopped doing Karate, you are still stuck in it's describtion of technique
Not every style has only a reverse puch with the back erect


I mentioned the tables because there are kids ( and even adults) that can name the complete tables but ask them 4x7 and the have to do the table of 7 to give the answer, if you would ask them 7x4 they would do the table of 4 it didn't teach them multiplying

If you would slide up and down the gym doing techniques in their fighting form, there wouldn't be anything wrong with going up and down would it? It would teach you proper footwork

As for the 2 last paragraph, it is my opinion that most MA's although started as defence method, can no longer be seen as such, most were made in a time were not a lot was know about other countries adn their fighting systems, people came across certain ways of fighting and developed methods that worked against those
Now we have this global vilage and we know about most ways of fighting, therefor any formal art that is based on the old system can't be selfdefence
Now one could say MT isn't but in a sence it didn't change either, it didn't incorporate the groundfight either

In 19th century Okinawa, Karate was an effective means of selfdefence but now with boxers, thaiboxers, wrestlers etc around there are so many more ways in which you can be attacked that it is no longer effective
Any martial art that stays the same over a long period of time will in the end lose it's effectiveness
This is a process that usually starts as soon as the founder dies because the followers don't dare to change anything

Sometimes it is even worse, the founder did change things before he died but some of he old students dismiss it and say things like," he did it that way because he was no longer in his prime, he could no longer do it the way I do it" the person claiming this was the same age the founder was when he was no longer in his prime

Shotokan peopel do not dare to get rid of the way to deep stances because they think this is how Funokoshi made it, it wasn't his son who made the changes so why not change it back, or otherwise consider the son the founder of your style not Gichin

The arts that consider competition the same as real fights, can't be considered good SD
Arts that do not have realistic sparring can't be either
Most of the MA's belong to one of these two catagories some to both

[brokenelbow]

brokenelbow - You seem to broadly agree with me. As for the beginners having to start somewhere, I agree. But why not have them start doing realistic moves from the beginning? OK, slow it all down at first. Let people get the hang of it.

I agree, but sadly training in a realistic manner isn't attractive to many people in the martial arts. Most people like to wear a gi, do the kata and think they're doing karate. In many ways it's no different than the guys who think they're becoming a sort of spec ops guy by learning some supposed combatives or street fighting.

But Karate instills the robotic movements, and progression seems to be about being a better robot.

I've seen this too, but that's not proper training in karate.

And the reverse punch? I actually have used it in real situations many times. In Shukokai we had the "double hip", and practised against foam pads. The impact we developed was considerable (unlike many Karate-ka, who manage to win Black Belts without actually hitting anything).

Oy vay, I agree.

The blow to the solar plexus could finish a fight. But the lower ribs/kidneys are too low for it. I suppose you could make it work, but an uppercut would work much better.

It's not too low if you use the verticle fist which is a better inside method of punching than the corkscrew IMO. But think about the corkscrew punch right off of the hip while the palm is still up, it's very, very close to a low upper cut to the lower ribs.

[Thai Bri]

Toudiyama - I have no problem with ANYONE cross trainin. But I do think its nonsense when they claim to represent one style, when clearly using a great many techniques from another. Whether they claim to be Thai, Karate or BJJ. It matters not to me.

Karate didn't become less effective because people wouldn't change it. It became less effective because people DID change it - for the worse.

If you want to believe that Karate is effective, against all the real evidence, please do so. You seem good at convincing yourself, why let that talent go to waste?

brokenelbow - but now you are describing a punch more akion to an uppercut, which is what I recommended in the first place.

See how you all learn from me?

[choylifutrocks]

Originally posted by Thai Bri

They made it too easy, so that more students would stay the course and make money. You can train alongside your 6 year old kid and 60 year old Grandma. And both could well be wearing Black Belts.

TB, you better watch what you say. Dr. Laura Schlesinger (spelling) has a black belt, and if she heard you talk like that, you'd be getting it. Put it this way, good things are worth paying for right? Well, in most Karate / TKD school, you pay like $500 a belt; not to mention $70 per month, not including private sessions that may cost as much as $50 per hour. That says it all right there Two years down the road, you've spent like a million dollars. Tell me, what can you buy for a million dollars that isn't cool? Don't get too offended people, I'm only referring to the McDojo's that have become so common.

I kid you not, there is this place down the street from where I train called like, "United Studio's of Self Defense". They train from the teachings of Mr.Miyagi, and have the Karate Kid symbol on their wall. No joke!

Now they're claiming to be kung fu, they don't know which style, but it's kung fu nontheless. Out of the hundres of different kung fu styles there are only like 4 effective ones, 2 of which I don't personally find too effective, but the other two are great. so if you're gonna claim kung fu, know the style. I still maintain my position that the term kung fu should be blown off of the face of the earth. LOL. Oh yeah, the owner doesn' t practice MA's, but he drives a porsche.

[Nit]

From before I joined this forum but mostly in the past few months I have been re-evaluating my training in Wado Ryu Karate (mostly thanks to various members on this forum), and I found that even though I was quite high in grade and experience, I actually had a lot of bad habits taught into me.

Since then I and others have undertaken a kind of journey where we have brought up our general level of practice... we do all the things we did before (well, most) but when the lesson starts and we partner up that person is your opponent, you hit them or grab them and you don't stop until they stop you (not all the time, but thats what we work towards).

Also when we practise kata, afterwards we practise practical application of it, again we make sure that were not gentlemanly about it and get hit if you do it wrong...

We have a great 'guest' sensei that we see once a week, he teaches us to learn the principal of the movement, not the actual movement. This was demonstrated to good effect last Sunday where we had been practising Kushanku - and at the end of the lesson we did a bit of messy conflict, basically attack a partner randomly with arms or legs and try to get them on the ground in lock or mount... and it was really evident that when we didn't have time to think the kata was actually helpful, like a twitch reaction. I'm not saying we were unbeatable, infact its was roughly 60 - 40% success rate. But with <i> focused and realistic </i> practise I can see how the kata and would work.

But definately before I did any of this I would be dead meat in a fight on the street, now I think that I have a marginally better chance... just because I'm used to what it feels like to have a hulking great bruiser come at you and not let up unless you deal with them (and I ache all over now!).

definately there are too many people out there teaching a good art badly...

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Toudiyama - I have no problem with ANYONE cross trainin. But I do think its nonsense when they claim to represent one style, when clearly using a great many techniques from another. Whether they claim to be Thai, Karate or BJJ. It matters not to me.

Karate didn't become less effective because people wouldn't change it. It became less effective because people DID change it - for the worse.

If you want to believe that Karate is effective, against all the real evidence, please do so. You seem good at convincing yourself, why let that talent go to waste?

brokenelbow - but now you are describing a punch more akion to an uppercut, which is what I recommended in the first place.

See how you all learn from me?

I agree wih you on the first part but everytime I see it used purely against trad MA I never hear people say that the Gracies should stop calling what they do JJ
Everytime you see people pointing out that there are no Karateka in MMA events but then is point one of you is true, neither are there any MT, BJJ, boxing or any other Single art

Karate didn't "become"ineffective but it stays ineffective because of the unwillingness to change

I used karate in real life so therefor for me it has proven it's effectiveness and that's enough for me, I do not care if they can't win a MMA event on Karate alone.
I did not convince myself, real life situations did that for me

Unless Karateka get beaten all the time in the streets, you can't prove it's ineffectiveness either ( it's hard to prove that something is not)

[jukado1]

to learn self-defense.

To learn self-defense, first set your goals, exactly what results do you want from your training, without that you will only get to the result your looking for by accident, with out a solid goal it would be like trying to get to a particular store in a strange town, with out having any idea where it is. Next, work on learning your basic hand and foot weapons, work on only techniques that are going to be effective, this is where an instructor can come in handy, work on, in this phase of your training your physical conditioning, and try to as much as possible don't beat up oxygen, try to always hit something, bags, focus pads, people. Next, again this is easier with an instructor, learn how, and when, and where to use these basics, learn the principles and theory's of self-defense. Next to some karate type sparring, light or no contact, working on timing, distance, initial speed, footwork, and just getting used to facing an opponent in a physical situation. Last do some full contact training, boxing, kick boxing, submission grappling, learning what it feels like to be hit, kicked, twisted, and choked, Now reemphasize your mindset of street defense and not sport training and your on the road to effective self-defense. If you notice nothing i said mentioned any particular school, or style, anybody that teaches with this type of mind set is a good s/d instructor. just make sure your being taught by this type of mind set and not a dance school.

[Thai Bri]

Well, that makes perfect sense to me.

[bvermillion]

I kid you not, there is this place down the street from where I train called like, "United Studio's of Self Defense". They train from the teachings of Mr.Miyagi, and have the Karate Kid symbol on their wall. No joke!

I think you are making alot of that up. I have never heard anything bad about The United Studio's of Self Defense. There instructor was inducted into the Black Belt Hall of Fame this year. There main style is Shaolin Kempo. Mr. Mattera is also proficient in Jujutsu, Kung Fu, Wushu,shotokan, and goju. I don't nor never have trained with Mr. Mattera but I think you need to check you facts before you post crap like that.

[kempo_jujutsu]

someone asked where kyokushin shone outside the karate world......k1...right along side muay thai.
pardon my opinion but i think bickering about who's style is better and who's style is crap is pointless and unneccessary.
if it works for you....then keep doing it.
i think most 'modern' or 'not karate' martial artists just bash karate based only on the bad karate they have seen...and maybe thats all they have seen was bad karate.
i agree real karate is rare and hard to find, but it does exist. but its unfair to say the art of karate is bad, its not the art its the people teaching it (or not teaching it if you will)
i am in between the two extremes, kata for instance, kata is great, it works for what it is meant to be used for, which is balance, exercise, and it is a toolbox of techniques for study and interpretation. however you can NOT learn to fight with kata, you must train "alive" so to speak. i think that is the key to making any system work well.
effective arts that come to mind....muay thai, bjj, shootfighting, mma....all of these techniques came directly from traditional martial arts of some sort, the difference is their training methods. ie...why can muay thai guys fight? because they fight.
just because you do kata doesnt mean you cant fight, just because you dont do kata doesnt mean you are better than someone who does do kata...it boils down to training.
only my opinion.

[choylifutrocks]

Originally posted by bvermillion


I think you are making alot of that up. I have never heard anything bad about The United Studio's of Self Defense. There instructor was inducted into the Black Belt Hall of Fame this year. There main style is Shaolin Kempo. Mr. Mattera is also proficient in Jujutsu, Kung Fu, Wushu,shotokan, and goju. I don't nor never have trained with Mr. Mattera but I think you need to check you facts before you post crap like that.

I'm not freaking kidding, his students are handing out fliers on the sidewalks outside of his McDojo. Do you have any knowledge about the way a business is run? Well, if you did you would know that the "sign" outside of a business is posted outside of a store does not always reflect the name of the business. Example, there is a local company called "Discout Tire" in my town, that has absolutely no link whatsoever with the Discount Tire chain of stores. He cannot be sued because his company name is not Discount Tire, it is Thompson's Discount Tire. He did not post his full business name because it is a smart business move being that Discount Tire is a trusted name that people know.

So, just lemme pull your head out of your @ss for a second.....wow that was easy, no resistance from that hole. Ok, now that you're ears aren't full of crap let me review this for you. "United Studios of Self Defense" in my town may operate unde the business name of "Miyagi's United Studios of Self Defense" and post "United Studio's of Self Defense" outside of their business in order to promote their establishment with a trusted name.

I'll go aheand and clear Mr. Mattera's name, because I highly doubt this is one of his studios, as the owners DO NOT PRACTICE MA'S. I also am not saying that all McDojo's under that name are crap, but the one down the street from me IS.

THere are a few things I"ll do: I'll tell you you're a moron (which you are), tell you to shut your mouth if need be (and you need it), and set you straight (which I'll oblige to do anytime), but I will not lie. Liars are peices of trash, and I am very offended by anyone calling me a liar.

Oh yeah, and if I walk into a MA school and see black belts point sparring that would get absolutely rocked by the average "Jo"ke, I think I can say that school is a peice of trash, especially when they charge by the damn belt. Any school that charges by the belt and advances a person through the ranks as fast as they can to earn as much $ as possible should be torched to the ground as they are hurting people and getting paid for it.

[BadgerFu57]

Originally posted by MMouse
i think I will look into boxing or judo. I live in a small city and am limited to taekwondo, shotokan, isshinryu, judo and boxing. Only have time for one art, so I think judo may be my choice. having more muscle than I should naturally could lead me to probs with boxing.

Street Fighting, the best choice is boxing.

But Judo is also a good choice for martial arts.... it will allow you to spar frequently without injury which is fun. Try boxing and Judo out and do whichever you enjoy most. The chances of you getting in a fair street fight are slim, and you would probably win anyway being a bodybuilder. Just find something you enjoy. Boxing will make you a conditioning maniac if you plan to compete. I know you are a bodybuilder, but how far can you run?

[choylifutrocks]

Originally posted by Toudiyama[NL]
I used karate in real life so therefor for me it has proven it's effectiveness and that's enough for me, I do not care if they can't win a MMA event on Karate alone.
I did not convince myself, real life situations did that for me

Unless Karateka get beaten all the time in the streets, you can't prove it's ineffectiveness either ( it's hard to prove that something is not)

^ I like that...true and to the point. Not everyone is in competition.