Modern/Kodokan Judo

[Greenthink]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Funny how being big in the world of sport Judo somehow qualifies a person for commenting on non sport Judo.

Its like saying "Karate is more effective than Thai Boxing. I am the First Special Research Student of Thai Boxing, and I have the qualifications in Karate to prove it". (but I haven't done Thai Boxing......)

Nonsense.

If it's non-sport it isn't judo.That would be a contradiction in terms.
Thats why they call it combatives.Or jui-jitsu maybe.

.

[IPON]

Originally posted by Greenthink
If it's non-sport it isn't judo.That would be a contradiction in terms.
.

Kevin - It is not a contradiction of terms. I just explained that judo is both sport and self defense, regardles of the Judo coach you quoted. I used Kano's words.

Also, can you explain if Judo does not accomodate SD why are there judo katas specifically for combat, unarmed and armed (knife, stick and gun) attacks.

By your logic then I suppose that TKD if used for fighting should be called something different becuase most see it as sport. Come on man I don't know why you hand on to these useless autistic points.

[IPON]

Re: blood sport

Originally posted by Greenthink
Sport.It's all just sport still anyway. That's why its called sudden death.
(Ippon)
They fight because its a sport not because they are mad at each other.
Funny we argue about whether it is a sport or self defence.Same thing no matter how you look at it.All sports I think historically
involve fighting or hunting. How about football.They used human heads back in England for kicking around. Animals use sport to train their young.In the first Olympics some wrestler ripped the other wrestlers heart out,just for fun.How about the Roman gladiators and feeding christian to lions .It was all for fun in the coliseum

Here you contradict your self regarding sports and fighting.

Sports historically involve fighting, yes I can see your point in track and field, baseball, basketball, volleyball, shot put, Futbol, rugby, field hockey, bowling, tennis, mountain climbing, rowing, iceskating

The rest of it is too warped for me to comment.

[Greenthink]

Warped ?Me warped? Why thankyou. YOu mean modern sports aren't training for war? O.K. But historically sports have had a purpose thats all.
Judo is an organized sport, thats obvious.But I don't really care whether it's self defense or not.
Just so they lose the subservience crap.We need to train fighters not moonies.
Just so they keep it seperate.Maybe you will agree that judo isn't a religion. Thats good enough for me.
We just need to look forward not so much backwards.
Who gives a flying fricken flop.
I took judo for the self defense attributes so there.But anybody that steps back and looks can see its an Olympic sport, national A.A.U. sport and a sport taught in schools. Of course it has self defense uses its original purpose is a sport to compliment that.

So now we can go on and discuss ways to make judo better!





Ban The B-Word!

[Greenthink]

Re: Re: blood sport

Originally posted by IPON


Here you contradict your self regarding sports and fighting.

Sports historically involve fighting, yes I can see your point in track and field, baseball, basketball, volleyball, shot put, Futbol, rugby, field hockey, bowling, tennis, mountain climbing, rowing, iceskating

The rest of it is too warped for me to comment.

Eveything I said is true! People are very cruel. Its all in the history books . Just because you choose to turn a blind eye doesn't change history.

[Greenthink]

If you get a chance look up the book by Desmond Morris. Manwatching . He is a cultural anthropologist.I am sure he talks about the importance of play.

[Thai Bri]

Spanky is an expert on play.

He plays with himself all the time.

[Szczepankiewicz]

He plays with himself all the time.

You say that like it's a bad thing?

Must not be as good as you though... no spectacles yet.

Spanky

[michaelarsanis]

kano's own words:..........."The final aim of Judo, therefore, is to inculcate in the mind of man a spirit of respect for the principle of maximum efficiency and of mutual welfare and benefit, leading him so to practice them that man individually and collectively can attain to the highest state, and, at the same time, develop the body and learn the art of attack and defense."..........

Thats self defense/fighting. I do believe that judo as a competitive sport came LATER. It was never a primary goal of Kano to make Judo a sport, but rather a secondary goal to bring it more exposure.

Early Judo ( I mean over 100 years ago) to my understanding DID NOT have groundwork. It wasn't until a little while later when Kano's students got beat by groundwork specialists that he added groundwork to the curriculum.

Read the following:

"As I stated earlier, Judo was a collection of Jiu-jitsu styles, once such style was the Fusen Ryu. Fusen was a school of Jiu-jitsu which specialized in Ground Work (Ne Waza). In 1900, the Kodokan challenged the Fusen Ryu school to a contest. At that time Judo did not have Ne Waza (ground fighting techniques), so instead they fought standing up, as Kano had been taught in both the Tenshin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu systems he studied. Both Kito Ryu and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu had excellent striking skills and effective throws.

When Kodokan Judo practitioners fought the practitioners of Fusen Ryu Jiu-Jitsu, the Kodokan practitioners realized that there was no way they could defeat the Kodokan Judoka standing, thus they decided to use their superior ground fighting skills. When the Kodokan fighters and the Fusen Ryu men began to fight, the Jiu-Jitsu practitioners immediately went to the guard position ( lying on their backs in front of their opponents in order to control them with the use of their legs). The Kodokan Judoka didn't know what to do, and then the Fusen Ryu practitioners took them to the ground, using submission holds to win the matches. This was the first real loss that the Kodokan had experienced in eight years.

Kano knew that if they were going to continue challenging other Jiu-Jitsu schools, they needed a full range of ground fighting techniques. Thus with friends of other Jiu-Jitsu systems, among them being Fusen Ryu practitioners, Kano formulated the Ne Waza (ground techniques) of Kodokan Judo which included three divisions: Katame Waza (joint locking techniques), Shime Waza (choking techniques), and Osae Waza (holding techniques). This all occurs shortly before Judo arrives in Brazil, and serves as an excellent suggestion as to why Brazilian Jiu-jitsu contains a higher percentage of techniques on the ground than most styles of Jiu-jitsu or Judo. Thus, we find ourselves faced with the impending development of Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil."




Now if you look at judo textbooks from the 1940's or 50's (or even modern books like "Kodokan Judo" which have old pictures in them) you WILL see many techniques in those old black and white photographs that anyone would think are Brazilian jiujitsu techniques. Triangle from guard, oma plata, etc.

So in this sense, BJJ IS old school judo. After all, it was a Judoka who taught the Brazilians.........

Here is a very interesting article from www.jiu-jitsu.net called "There is nothing new about Jiujitsu" June 2003 archive. Check this out!:

http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/news_archive_0603.shtml

Also, if you wanna learn about the history of judo, check www.judoinfo.com


Here, I added the main body of the article:

Nothing New
I always hear a lot about "New Moves" from Brazil or the latest techniques … Is this a reality? Yes and No. Yes, because as any art evolves, new variations and set ups are 'discovered'. No, because every single time I hear about a new move or counter, it isn't long before I see it in an old Judo book, or as I did recently, in The Kosen Judo tapes. Before I start talking about these tapes, I really want everyone to understand that I had a Black Belt in a traditional style of Jiu-jitsu and took it off to study Brazilian Jiu-jitsu (in which I am currently a Brown Belt). I felt that the 'old' style I was practicing was lacking certain dimensions and the evolution that the Brazilian style had (like comparing a Model T to a Mustang). We did all the same moves like the Triangle (sankau-jime), Armbar (juji-gatame), chokes, pins, throws, etc … But because of Kano's heavy influence and focus on stand up training instead of ground work (remember that very few styles of Jiu-jitsu put such a heavy emphasis on Newaza (groundwork) as BJJ or Fusen Ryu did), the emphasis was on setting up throws and taking people down. Its just the emphasis and I felt that since we were all trying to get each other to the ground anyway, what happened there (once on the ground) was more important, so I switched to Brazilian Jiu-jitsu; this was just a personal preference. Now you have to look at this from both sides: since the emphasis in BJJ is groundwork, and in Judo, the throw, I would bet my last dollar that a BJJ Black Belt vs. Judo Black belt match will begin with the Judo player getting the takedown. But it will end with the BJJ Black Belt getting the submission (that is, of course if there is no time limit). So it is simple a matter of prioritizing, not that the techniques aren't a part of each art. A Judo player has more set ups standing, a BJJ player has more on the ground. The BJJ guy knows a load of takedowns and throws by Black Belt, but doesn't know how to set them up as well and vice versa. It is the set up that really makes techniques happen at a high level. I have seen all kinds of people do moves, like Frank Mir and his modified Americana from the guard. I've been doing this for years and learned it in a 'classical' Jiu-jitsu class, not BJJ. But because not many people saw it (or the first time they had seen it was in the UFC), it became the "Frank Mir Armlock" on the Internet the next day. This happens to me all the time. Guys come into my academy all the time with "new moves" that I learned 10 years ago. The triangle choke was introduced to Brazilian Jiu-jitsu from an old Judo book (read the history on this site, please). All of this is quite evident once you read Best Judo by Isao Inokkuma and Nobuyuki Sato, which was written in 1979 (this book covers everything considered by most as uniquely Brazilian, like the Omoplata).

Like many others, I thought that in addition to the set-ups, BJJ did have a few things that were truly "new". I thought this right up until I saw the Kosen Judo tapes. I watched as everything I thought had been invented by some Brazilian champion was demonstrated on this old tape from before their time. It started with something as simple as a half guard pass that I learned only a few years ago from a Brazilian friend and purple belt who had just been shown 'the latest moves'. I would then respond with, "Well, DeLaRiva guard is pretty unique to BJJ!". Nope. Low and behold, there are two old-as-hell Japanese guys doing sweeps from what I had always known as DeLaRiva Guard. I'm not kidding. Then, I thought, "Spider Guard, there's now wa …." WRONG. These old bastards were right there on my TV doing the sweep from spider guard where you set up the bicep lock with one leg, your shin across his belly, roll the opponent over and get the bicep lock (chave de biceps) from the top. Unreal. They were doing it with all the sophistication and grace of a 25-year-old Mundial Champion (remember, these guys look ancient, so all that crap about Judo guys using too much strength goes right out the window). Now, don't get me wrong, I didn't start dusting off my Japanese Jiu-jitsu black belt or anything. I still wasn't seeing the kind of set ups that you see on Mario Sperry's Master Series or a Michael Jen seminar. The sequencing was simply not there. HOWEVER, there were some pretty killer set ups and entries that had me leaning close to the TV like Rainman watching Judge Wappner. I think it will be hard for the average beginner to catch these fine details, especially because the whole thing is in Japanese, but believe me, there are loads of little details, tricks, and secrets here that had me nodding with approval and grinning the entire time, the rest of the time, I was taking notes.

[Greenthink]

The Complete Kano Jui-jitsu (Judo)
by H.Irving Hancock and Katsukuma Higashi
Dover Publications
(Quote)-
' This Dover edition, first published in 1961, is an unaltered republication of the work originally published by G.P. Putnams Sons in 1905,except that the last two sections (26 pages) on serious and fatal blows and kuatsu,or the restoration of life, have been omitted,because their use to the public is doubtful and they do not affect the over-all value of the book'.

International Standard book number: 0-486-20639-4
Library of Congress Catalog Card Number : 61-1980

It amazes me that there are Jui-Jitsu "experts" that have never heard of this book. The thing was written in 1905. I think I bought my copy in the early seventies about the same time I started Judo. It says I paid four dollars for the book so maybe it was even in the sixties.Old time photos ,it says the complete system of 160 throws and holds.487 photos in all.
paperback

[Greenthink]

It's all so confusing all the throws , locks , holddowns and strangles,but all of a sudden it dawns on you some day and its just a few principles each done with variation. That means you learn little principles and then you invent your own versions. Its not hard to achieve that level of understanding but it helps to learn it right the first time and in your own language! Look at how techniques are similar not as seperate things.That allows the flow from technique to technique.(Bruce?) And all of a sudden you see all kinds of little openings.
That level of understanding is the black belt level.You go" full circle" when you become a black belt you realize HOW to learn stuff , realizing that you have a vast amount more to learn. Your own stuff, the stuff you personally invent for you.It's like starting over, only you know the principles and adapt them to yourself.
Theres another full circle martial artists arrive at, and that is at old age with the higher black belts They practice the simple things the same as the beginners practice.The basics.They find enjoyment or amusement because by then they too have seen " going full circle" in life in alot of other ways also!

That is the way of Zen or circle of life.

[bvermillion]

thats the same with all martial arts if taught right

[Greenthink]

Originally posted by IPON


Kevin - It is not a contradiction of terms. I just explained that judo is both sport and self defense, regardles of the Judo coach you quoted. I used Kano's words.

Also, can you explain if Judo does not accomodate SD why are there judo katas specifically for combat, unarmed and armed (knife, stick and gun) attacks.

By your logic then I suppose that TKD if used for fighting should be called something different becuase most see it as sport. Come on man I don't know why you hand on to these useless autistic points.

Taekwon-do is a form of self defence and a martial art, according
To Gen. Choi Hong Hi, author of the book Taekwon-do and past president of the International Taekwon-do Federation.They made a sport out of it. Judo was a sport from the beginning its actions were already a martial art - juijitsu. .
Olympic Judo is to Juijitsu
What Olympic Taekwon-do is to original Taekwon-do.
You are not killing people on purpose in either of the sports.
Kata's are for ? who knows. What are they for anyway,girls and old people with arthritis? Some kind of poor excuse for practice. A form of exercise?Somebody thought they had some purpose, more ceromonial I think like dance . They don't have anyplace in competitive Judo.They epitomize the old fashioned training methods, the standing still stuff. I think maybe they are good for stretching.

[michaelarsanis]

Greenthink your definition of Judo contradicts Kano's definition of Judo.

[Greenthink]

It's obviously a sport. A game to mimic combat. Olympic sport in fact.Why whats the differance anyway.

Always was.Since the beginning.Get over it. I don't care anyway.
I am only interested in competitive judo.That means looking forward not backwards.

Everyone knows that good Judo guys beat everybody else up anyway. That is fact.

I think the other bozos should keep practicing Classical judo so there is lots of raw meat for those that are willing to learn the new stuff.
And for all the hero worshippers that think BJJ or any kind of Jui jitsu is better or think they have to look outside of America for a superior martial art. I have one word and that is

CCRRRRRRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH

(Thats the last thing the opponent hears when I dive them into the ground with a fully committed throw)