Karate ain't so bad

[Thai Bri]

At least we can agree on one thing.

That sherwinc has some serious mental health issues. Correct?

[brokenelbow]

The old KungFu Instructor answer " I AM STILL - LEARNING "
Non-KungFu martial arts is easier to master - so, easier to defeat......
That is what i mean, see???? you dont know what i mean......
CONVINCED?????????

Yes your argument is brilliant.

Thai Bri, you have never been more correct.

[IPON]

At least we can agree on one thing.

That sherwinc has some serious mental health issues. Correct?

I agree with you and Toudiyama[NL]

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Oh , so it wasn't the alcohol from the night before which caused me to totally lose it
I assumed he was going for "Post with most foreign terms" or "Most off-topic post" awards

[Andrew WA]

yeah

I read the first page and the past page but not the middle stuff.

I trained in taekwondo for 8 years and quit because of its corruption and lack of realistic training.


Martial arts are about killing and hurting people in order to safe your life and the lives of people you love. There is no other reason for the martial arts existence. If you think otherwise then you are ignorant.

Im sick of karate and taekwondo schools teaching absolute BS to everyone and creating a false sense of security about their skills. 9 out of 10 black belts totally suck and out of shape and pathetic!!!

PArt of the reason taekwondo sucks so bad now days is because of people "Wanting to join TKD for their kids blah blah family blah blah sweet family love and child parent relationships" that is all good to do but im sick of it being the only reason. Karate and TKD schools are full of people like this who are afraid to actually punch someone or be punched. These people make the schools suck for people like me who wanted to train hard and be effetcive. When I tuaght classes the people hated it because I made them sweat! I was an assistant insturctor and I also tuaght brutal moves as well to effectively damage knee joints and elbow joints etc...
Taekwondo and Karate has realized how pathetic they have become but dont care because they are getting extremely rich off of everyone and make their classes geared towards wusses. They ussually end up kicking out people like me. Thats kind of why I quit because of an argument I had with people. They favored a green belt dad's opinion over a 2nd dan's opinion.

Taekwondo originally was a very tough art and for tough people and only tough people made it to black belt or higher. The real art of TKD is effective for standup fighting really well. So is the REAL art of Karate.


But I will say that forms are good to practice in. You may not fight like that but the sole reason to practice them is for excersize. You gain strenght in your knees and thighs because of the hard stances and you punches get WAY stronger and all your strikes as well and your kicks get really strong and powerful as well. You dont fight like that but the reason to practice in them is because it helps your form and technique. If you get good at forms and practice them hard and do realistic moves and you practice them like your fighting then the power and technique carry over into your fighting.
If you can master forms you will get good control and power. You will not fight in stabnces that low or deep but the fact you strenghtened yourself that much makes you a better balanced person.


Forms are not effective fight training. But they are effective training for power and speed and all of that which carries over into your fighting.

I think forms are good. But dont ONLY practice them. I suggest practice fighting WAY more then forms. But learn to master forms.

[Thai Bri]

Forms are not effective fight training. But they are effective training for power and speed and all of that which carries over into your fighting.

You make no sense. They are NOT good for fighting but, because they increase power and speed which carries over into fighting, they ARE good for fighting.

Firstly, accepting your premise that they build speed and power..... your statement is contradictory.

Secondly, I DO NOT ACCEPT THE PREMISE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Andrew WA]

Well you are obviously close minded to forms.

There are times when kids are really sloppy and kick so slow and are off balanced. When they are tuahgt the correct technique to kick and are tuaght the forms then they can practice them by themselves until they get it down perfect and then their techniques will be awsome and they can fight better.

The reason people stand in horse stances is because it strengthens your thighs and if you think it doesnt you have to be an idiot. And if you think strengthening your thighs is not going to help you fight better then your also an idiot.
Forms teach proper body mechanics. Its an excersize. A workout.


NOw tell me how the hell that stupid looking idiotic thai dance before each match is suppossed to help you fight better? IT DOEST DO CRAP!! At least forms have some type of combat to them. I would never learn a rediculous dance just to be a thai boxer. OH WOW YOU MUST LOOK COOL! Screw that.

That was just an example of how ignorant and stupid your statements are sounding.

The whole point of this is that forms DO HAVE VALUE but if you practice ONLY them then you are stupid and WILL NEVER be a good fighter.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Motobu Choki, a Karate fighter known for his fightingskills ( which he proved against boxers and judoka in early MMA fights) claimed this was because of one form named Naihanchi(naifanchi or Tekki)
Originaly the horsestance or actually naihanchidachi wasn't as wide as people do it now, the feet should be hipwidth appart, legs bend but not to much
In Okinawa karate the feet are much close together than in Japanese Karate that has a relation to post "son of Funakoshi" era

BTW it wasn't commercialism that took out the fighting will, this was a proces that was started as soon as it hit the mainland of Japan, you don't do Kendo to learn how to fight do you, but it is a martial art, well martial way

Oh the argument with a green belts dad and you, dono what it was about but your second degree black belt don't mean shit except that you know a certain amount of techniques, doesn't mean you know how to teach or that you are alway right
So you leaving after they agreed with the other might just as well show, you don't like to be told you are wrong even if you are wrong
You were ans assistant and took it on yourself to change the curriculum on your own by adding stuff or did the head teacher know about it and agree?
If an assistant of mine did that, he wouldn't be my assistant anymore.
If you think something extra is needed you go to the headteacher and discuss it with him, if he doesn't agree, you leave and start your own school and style

[Beginner]

QUOTE]Karate and Tae Kwon Do Kata is useless!!!!!! cause they are all telegraphic to the eye, even thou how fast you execute your moves still telegraphic to the eye cause most of their moves thier fist comes from their waist and to the target.....

Kata is the heart & soul of Karate. And I believe this is the same for ANY traditional martial art. It is no different from the forms one learns from Kung Fu. As has been said time & time again in this thread, kata teaches the practitioner proper form. With proper form comes power & strength. The moves are telegraphic because it is done so to emphasize the proper movement. Once execution of a kata is perfected, actual fighting techniques speed up & power is generated more. For instance, in kumite (fighting), the movements of both Karateka's speeds up extremely. They will feed the each other w/ jabs then execute a reverse punch so fast, you almost cannot see who got who first. This is not to say the fighters do not have lessons in actual combat or kumite scenarios. Kata is there to teach the student proper form. Further, one kata is not an entire sequence of fighting. Each movement can be broken down to different applications in different scenarios, ergo in real fighting situations it is not telegraphic anymore.

Muay Thai and wrestling are useless too cause all of their attack is telegraphic also and not direct, they did not use the principle of THE SHORTEST DISTANCE BETWEEN POINT A TO POINT B IS A STRAIGHT LINE, they cannot attack directly but they take a fast deep breath before launching an attack whether a punch or a kick.

I don't understand where this statement came from. Different martial arts have different premises on the method of attack & defense. This is the reason why different people have different preferrences in the martial art they want to take up. My faith in my arts, Karate & the Filipino Martial Arts, does not include insulting other martial arts. Their ways are their ways & a true warrior must respect this.

Only KungFu attack the opponent using their Lead body weapons

Muay Thai and Wrestling attack the opponent using their Rear body weapons and that is a good example of a telegraphic move

Karate and Tae Kwon Do is an extremely telegraphic cause their attack comes from their Waist and to the target with a pause by pause and stop by stop motion of Kata while when they fight they do hoping and jumping jack from side to side and front to rear on which it could not be found on thier Kata, so their Kata is EXTREMELY USELESS!!!!!!

CONVINCED?????????

As was mentioned above, Kata is different from Kumite. Kata is the art that teaches proper form which builds power & speed. Kumite benefits from the strengths built by Kata. It would be wise that you first understand an art you criticize so negatively before making blunt statements. The best Sensei's & Guro's I had trained under never "put down" any other martial art.

It is surprising, in fact, that for a practitioner of an art that is very form-intensive, you do not understand the use of other system's forms training.

[Beginner]

I dont see much wrong with white and yellow belts doing katas or people who love tradition to practice them. But please dont fool your self into thinking that they train you to fight. There are many other ways of teaching somebody how to execute a technique properly.

Hi, H2H. There seem to be a misconception that when one is studying Karate, he is only doing Kata's. Just for info, I've studied Okinawan Shorin Ryu Karate - a very traditional system. Kata is but one of the "subjects", so to speak, of the whole art/system. It is that subject that strengthens the execution of your strikes, blocks & stances. What most people do not know is that proper execution of breathing is one of the most important components of doing Kata - and this is another great benefit. There are certainly other ways of teaching somebody how to execute a technique properly & Karate systems also employ these. Simply put, Kata is part of Karate. White & yellow belters have their level of Kata & black belters have theirs. Other "subjects" address Kumite & self defense. And as I've said, a Kata can be broken down into segments w/c can be applied to different scenarios. I, for one, have benefited from Karate. It's simplicity & power suits my style well. Further, it is the discipline & strength received from Karate that is helping me now in my learning of the Filipino Martial Arts.

Much respects

[Beginner]

Oh are the black belt katas in karate jumping around and doing cartwheels like the XMA Morons? JK Seariously though i can understand if one would want to go and do katas for the sake of tradition. But dont you punch differently when you are hitting a bag that thin air, the bag is move like a human than the thin air. I suppose you might be able to take some stuff from katas but are they really the most effective training method?

Really good questions. Actually, there are a number of Kata's in the higher belts that involve throw downs & is executed in a sort of a jumping & sweeping motion. The crux of the Kata is landing on both feet in a solid back stance. Kind'a cool, actually. But, yeah, no cartwheels - hehe. The punches are executed fairly the same I must say - only a lot faster. As I've said the Kata only emphasizes this. Think of the Kata as a book from w/c you will draw your answers from for certain scenarios. Kata's are not really the MOST effective training methods for fighting but it is one of a number of methods employed by Karate. It is one of the elements. Just like in stick fighting, you have strength training, footwork training, technique training & sayaw-sayaw (a form of shadow boxing). To become a real Karateka, you must practice all the elements (methods, subjects or whatever you want to call it) because it puts everything into place & makes you a better fighter. A cousin of mine, who has been doing Shotokan Karate for 15 years and is a member of the Karatedo National Team in our country for the last 4 or 5 years (???), told me recently that because he spent more time in the refinement of his Kumite techniques, he has become one of the country's representative Kumite players in his class (in my words he is one of the best - no bias). However, he feels that his being a Karateka is not complete because of his lack of refinement of his Kata's. The fact that their Kata team can still beat their Kumite team (and this is true) during sparring training puts learning Kata in the right perspective.

I do understand the apprehensiveness of most people in practicing Kata as it is both boring & seems impractical at face value. But to the trained & seasoned Karateka, the benefits of Kata to one's fighting spirit, character & overall physical fitness is invaluable.

Much respects

[Thai Bri]

Well you are obviously close minded to forms.

There are times when kids are really sloppy and kick so slow and are off balanced. When they are tuahgt the correct technique to kick and are tuaght the forms then they can practice them by themselves until they get it down perfect and then their techniques will be awsome and they can fight better.

The reason people stand in horse stances is because it strengthens your thighs and if you think it doesnt you have to be an idiot. And if you think strengthening your thighs is not going to help you fight better then your also an idiot.
Forms teach proper body mechanics. Its an excersize. A workout.


NOw tell me how the hell that stupid looking idiotic thai dance before each match is suppossed to help you fight better? IT DOEST DO CRAP!! At least forms have some type of combat to them. I would never learn a rediculous dance just to be a thai boxer. OH WOW YOU MUST LOOK COOL! Screw that.

That was just an example of how ignorant and stupid your statements are sounding.

The whole point of this is that forms DO HAVE VALUE but if you practice ONLY them then you are stupid and WILL NEVER be a good fighter.

You are teaching kids how NOT to balance when you teach them Kata. Especially with regards to kicks. A kick against thin air is very different to a powerful kick against a person or a bag. Very different. The air kicks hurt old ladies and works. And that's about all.

Standing in a Horse stance strengthens your legs..........for the Horse stance. It doesn't strengthen them for anything else. And the Horse stance is a shite stance to adopt for a real fight. Your wide open in it, as well as totally transparent, i.e. you only have limited options to an opponent with a trained eye.

As for the Thai Dances...... No one pretends that those movements improve technical skill. Unlike Kata, where people like you pretend to themselves.....

I despair. I really do. Kata actually impedes your development as a fighter. You learn how to move in a very different way than the way required for a real fight. You literally train yourself to do it wrong. But people feel the need to hold on to these antiquated methodsm, and use all kinds of circular arguments, illogical reasoning and rather desperate contradictions to convince yourselves.

I've been there. I've been in traditional Karate and told myself how my Kata training helps me learn to fight. But it was ME that had the open mind. I questioned it, openly and honestly. And ALL the real evidence told me that Kata is one of the biggest red herrings in the martial arts.

[Beginner]

You are teaching kids how NOT to balance when you teach them Kata. Especially with regards to kicks. A kick against thin air is very different to a powerful kick against a person or a bag. Very different. The air kicks hurt old ladies and works. And that's about all.

Kata DOES teach kids how to balance. One of the higher Kata's, Empi, requires that after take down, the Karateka must land on a perfect back stance. Both feet landing simultaneously. This crux can only be successfully executed when proper rotation of the hips is done at the apex of the jump, pulling your knees at the same time. Kicks in Kata are definitely different from kicks being done during bag & focus pads training.

Standing in a Horse stance strengthens your legs..........for the Horse stance. It doesn't strengthen them for anything else. And the Horse stance is a shite stance to adopt for a real fight. Your wide open in it, as well as totally transparent, i.e. you only have limited options to an opponent with a trained eye.

Pin-an, a Kata required in Green belt in my school, uses the Horse/Straddle stance. This Kata trains the student to adapt to close quarters fighting such as a corridor or - as it was meant to be used back in ancient times - rice paddies in Okinawa. It strengthens your legs for this type of encounter where side stepping out of the paddy is not possible as you would end up 2ft. in mud on the rice plants. In contrast, the Horse stance strengthens your legs, period. The Karate Side Kick is executed from the Horse stance.

As for the Thai Dances...... No one pretends that those movements improve technical skill. Unlike Kata, where people like you pretend to themselves.....

I despair. I really do. Kata actually impedes your development as a fighter. You learn how to move in a very different way than the way required for a real fight. You literally train yourself to do it wrong. But people feel the need to hold on to these antiquated methodsm, and use all kinds of circular arguments, illogical reasoning and rather desperate contradictions to convince yourselves.

Thai dances are done as this is the tradition of Muay Thai. Kata, aside from being a training method, is part of Karate "tradition". With all due respect, you have contradicted yourself at this statement.

No one is pretending. The movements of Kata has an interpretation. It can be interpreted as a whole or broken down into segments that will be applicable to the scenario.

Please do not despair. Kata strengthens every technique taught individually by putting them together into one interpretative sequence. As I have written previously, Kata emphasizes the required movements. Much like emphasizing long strikes in stick fighting; when you can execute the long strikes consistently, then you can move on doing short quick strikes.

Karateka's, not just "people", need to "hold" on to these "antiquated" methodologies the same way Muay Thai fighters hang on to the dances before their fight. The big difference however, is that Kata strengthens, refines execution, corrects breathing & builds character through mental stimulation & exercise. Believe me, executing a simple Kata correctly, drains much out of an individual. Karateka's do not do Kata's before a fight - it is one of the requirement to become a great Karateka.

I hope I do not sound illogical so far.

I've been there. I've been in traditional Karate and told myself how my Kata training helps me learn to fight. But it was ME that had the open mind. I questioned it, openly and honestly. And ALL the real evidence told me that Kata is one of the biggest red herrings in the martial arts.

Again, with all due respect, what is the belt that you have attained in your pursuit of Karate or more importantly, how long have you studied Karate?

Understanding & appreciation of Kata comes in different times depending on the individual. Or perhaps Karate is just not for you. Kata is the true spirit of Karate, therefore, one cannot be a great Karateka if one cannot do Kata.
In fact, Kata players can be great Kumite players but not necessarily vice versa.

Much respects

[sherwinc]

NOw tell me how the hell that stupid looking idiotic thai dance before each match is suppossed to help you fight better? IT DOEST DO CRAP!! At least forms have some type of combat to them. I would never learn a rediculous dance just to be a thai boxer. OH WOW YOU MUST LOOK COOL! Screw that.

That was just an example of how ignorant and stupid your statements are sounding.

The whole point of this is that forms DO HAVE VALUE but if you practice ONLY them then you are stupid and WILL NEVER be a good fighter.

THAI BRI,
This is what i mean, Muay Thai do dancing and that stupid dance has no application to Fighting.
Unlike those of KungFu Kata's, all of its individual movement has a 6 to more hidden application. Just practice the KungFu forms and in time to time you can break the code (discover another unexpected fighting applications)

CONVINCED????????????

[IPON]

NOw tell me how the hell that stupid looking idiotic thai dance before each match is suppossed to help you fight better?

Andrew I don't study MT, but I think the dance is just for ceremony. I don't think it any fighting meaning, just a prayer before the fight. But of course I could be wrong.