Help me please if you can!

[darrianation]

Karate and Tae Kwon Do are by FAR not wimpy. I guarantee you, if you take a GOOD karate/TKD class and get a GOOD instructor, you will be able to hit harder than you ever could before. Although, it does take a while to develop, but by the time you get to about an orange belt you'll be pretty good. You wont be a bad ass, but you'll be able to defend yourself. The only problem is, is that most people out there don't know what they're doing. Thats why boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, jeet kune do, etc. are so popular nowadays. Try to get a class thats not so focused on sports competition, (not that sports competition is bad, but focusing just on tornament tactics won't help you as well). You need a sensei that will work on actuall street defense. But listen, no matter what style you take, you wont be an ultimate bad ass in six weeks, it takes time to learn how to fight. Also, the only way to learn to fight is to fight. You HAVE to spar. If you have any other questions on karate/TKD just ask me. I'm not saying they're the best, but they are good systems, if you get a good teacher.

Oh please!

I have been involved in martial arts since 1977, a lot of that has been in Karate. I have studeied in 4 different styles of Karate; I have also studied in Chinese Kenpo, the Filipino art of Arnis as well as a few years in Muay Thai. I have made three trips to Thailand to train in MT and one trip to Japan to train in Karate. I also have some training in boxing, and TKD. Believe me when I call Karate/TKD a bunch of whimps I know what I am talking about.

I am not necessarily talking about the individuals but about the inherent weaknesses in traditional MA training. Traditional Karate is far more worried about perfect, pretty techniques than they seem to be about the effective applications of those techniques. Sparring in karate is more like a friendly game of tag than anything else. I think kyokushin maybe the exception to the rule.

I have been to some combative seminars that make any thing I’ve ever done in karate look like the girl scouts and compared to MT Karate is the cub scouts. For self-defense I wouldn’t go to a traditional MA. I’d find a gym/school that concentrates on it.

Kali/Anis/Eskrima is by far better for SD than Karate/TKD because they teach both empty hands and weapons. Yea in karate you get weapons training but there’re impractical weapons.

If you are looking for a good sport boxing and MT are excellent and are far more practical for SD than Karate/TKD.

[Aka Kaze]

Oh please!

I have been involved in martial arts since 1977, a lot of that has been in Karate. I have studeied in 4 different styles of Karate; I have also studied in Chinese Kenpo, the Filipino art of Arnis as well as a few years in Muay Thai. I have made three trips to Thailand to train in MT and one trip to Japan to train in Karate. I also have some training in boxing, and TKD. Believe me when I call Karate/TKD a bunch of whimps I know what I am talking about.

I respect that you have taken the time to actually go out there and see what there is. I have nothing but respect for boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, etc. Now I'm not as old as you, i'm only a senior in highschool. I've been training since second grade. Now I want you to please ignore my lack of experience, but I do know what I'm talking about. I've been in plenty of fights, won many and lost many. Now I don't know what styles of karate you've trained in, but in my style is not like what you mean. I'll be honest with you, karate is a dying art. 400 years ago when it was created, it was an extremely effective art. But there are so many people that are only interested in commercializing not only this art, but many other arts, that karate is becoming a dying art. Yes it has become a lot of flash, especially if you watch that B.S. on ESPN. However, please believe me when I tell you that not all practitioners are like that. Many of us are very accomplished fighters and aren't ignorant of what fighting really is like so many others. It's sad to say that most senseis out there probably havn't even been in fight, much less won one.
I am not necessarily talking about the individuals but about the inherent weaknesses in traditional MA training. Traditional Karate is far more worried about perfect, pretty techniques than they seem to be about the effective applications of those techniques. Sparring in karate is more like a friendly game of tag than anything else. I think kyokushin maybe the exception to the rule.

Okay, I like the fact that you're attacking the art, not the person. But, again, not all styles are like that. In my style, we don't concentrate on the flash, but power, skill, application, and experience. But lets be reasonable here, if you don't do the techniuques correctly, you wont learn the proper body mechanics behind them. As I mentioned before, we don't do the stupid ISKA stuff on ESPN, we train realistically. We don't do the stupid flashy stuff, like the acrobatic flips and stuff. The only good stuff I've seen on ESPN was boxing, K-1, and where they do breaking, which is pretty cool! But anyways, yeah, you have to have good techniuque in order to have good power. But just because it's flashy, doesn't mean the technique is good. You have to look at traditional forms, like Basai, Seisan, Pinan, Naihanchi, Rohai, and TKD Hyung like, Yul-Kok, Hwarang, Chil Jang, etc. If you look at those and then look at the ISKA stuff, you will see a MAJOR difference in flashyness. Though I'm not sure how you mean that it's flashy. If you mean like ESPN, then yeah, a the traditional forms aren't like that. But if you mean stuff like high kicks and jump kicks, thats different. The truth is they all have their application. Its not good to do to many high kicks, because a competent fighter will just grab your leg and sweep. Jump kicks have no real application, except for developing accuracy, power, etc. If you can hit a target accurately with a jump spin 360 back kick, then a regular standing front kick would be no problem, right?
I have been to some combative seminars that make any thing I’ve ever done in karate look like the girl scouts and compared to MT Karate is the cub scouts. For self-defense I wouldn’t go to a traditional MA. I’d find a gym/school that concentrates on it.

Girl scouts, huh? Yeah, funny. Again, it depends on what style you do and who teaches it to you. If you get an incompetent teacher, you get incompetent skills. If you've really trained in karate youd understand that there are many dangerous techniques found in the bunkai of many of the forms you've probably learned. Some people say this is bull crap, but if you really look at each movement and examine it, you'll begin to see that many of these techniques are very dangerous. Now no technique is perfect, no matter what style, but there are some really good ones. I think I've mentioned one I use from Chil Jang. I think I talked about it in the Kata Vs. Shadow boxing forum. Anyway, if you go back and look at these, you'll find there are many good techniques that are very dangerous. I use many of these bunkai in sparring and it's made me a better fighter because of it.Kali/Anis/Eskrima is by far better for SD than Karate/TKD because they teach both empty hands and weapons. Yea in karate you get weapons training but there’re impractical weapons.


If you are looking for a good sport boxing and MT are excellent and are far more practical for SD than Karate/TKD.

This isn't necissarily true. Lets take the sai for example. Couldn't you pick up a knife or even a pencil and use it the same way? Sure there's no hooks on the side for parrying, but you can still use the thrusts and stuff. The Bo. Pick up a big, sturdy stick, and you've got a bo. Get a smaller one, like a broom stick, mop, shovel, etc. and you've got a Jo. Get a lead pipe and you've got a tanbo. Pick up some sausage and you've got a nunchaku! Hell, I don't care, you can pick up anything around you and find something usefull about it!
Now don't get me wrong, boxing and Muay Thai are pretty good. But do they really teach the proper body mechanics for good power? Do they teach you to hit with the first two knuckles for more concentrated blows? Do they teach you to use the waist, or even the back and midsection for added torque for you're strikes? I don't know, because I've never trained in these styles, but please say if they do. I would be happy to hear that and might even consider some cross training to broaden my martial knowledge. Now please keep in mind, that I'm not here to advertise or promote my style, but I'm just trying to merely point out that not all styleists are wimps, I'm CERTAINLY not! The style I do is called Shoshinkan, or True mind/spirit house. I do traditional karate, and have chosen not to remain ignorant to techniques from other arts like many other people. I take all the other styles out there and learn from them. It's like Bruce Lee said, "Absorb what is useful". That's what I do. I'm not saying TMA's are any better than MMA's, but there are advantages and disadvantages to training in both ways.

[darrianation]

Aka Kaze

The styles of karate I have trained in are Wado ryu, Shtio ryu, Uechi ryu, and I am currently doing Shotokan Karate. Of the four I’ve done I like Wado the best. I like the throws and the emphasis on body movement and footwork to avoid being hit.

It sounds to me you have been brain washed by the traditionalists. Hey I was too. I have learned a lot over the years that have changed my way of thinking. When I began training in MA I thought Wado was the best MA out there. I knew TKD and Shotokan people who said come train with us we are better then what you train in. I told them no way Wado beats all.

We were a very tournament oriented school. We had national champs and guys who competed internationally. My instructor knew pretty much all MA guys in the greater metro area (Phoenix Arizona) and when we weren’t going to tournaments we were going to different dojos and sparring school against school, style against style. Even though some of these schools had a student or two who could beat one or two of our students over all we would dominate all the matches. I remember going to two different kenpo schools, a TKD school, Wing chun, shotokan just to name a few and we whipped up on all of them. As a 12 year old I was quite impressed and thought because we could beat all these other styles in sparring Wado must be the best.

In 1982 I began to train In Muay Thai While continuing to train in Wado. Muay Thai was much more brutal with much more physical workouts. It wasn’t long before my techniques, stances and sparring began to look more like MT and less and less like Karate.

I began my training in muay thai when I went to watch a friend of mine box at his gym. At his school they had western boxing, Kenpo (American), and Muay Thai. While I was there I saw some guys training using these pads strapped to their forearms and they were really punching, kicking, elbowing, and kneeing these pads with great speed and power. I saw guys flying through the air grabbing the heavy bags and kneeing them with such power I was amazed. I signed up for a free introductory lesson.

My first lesson was an eye opener. I was a confident brown belt in Wado and I bragged how good we were and how I had just won a tourney out in California. So at my second lesson they asked if I wanted to go a round with one of their newbie’s. I was like not only yea but hell yea! He was about 20lbs liter than I, I was about 180 and he about 160 and he had been training for about 8 months. I had been training for about 5 years. I thought I would whip him easy (a win was in the bag). I was dead wrong this guy whipped me but good. Every time I tried to close he would clinch me. He would throw leg kicks that at first I tried to block with down blocks which nearly got my arm broke. I didn’t know the leg shield and he landed several leg kicks because I would just stand there. I went home battered and bruised, with my ego in the gutter. It was that day I decided I needed to stick with MT. I continued for year training in both MT and Wado, then stopped going to Karate and did just MT until I went into the military.

In the military I wasn’t always able to find a MT gym so I trained in what ever I could. I was exposed to many styles, systems, and philosophies as well as MA people. My views and goals changed. While in the military I was exposed to combatives. I trained with some of Tony Blauer’s people; I did a seminar with the people from the S.C.A.R.S. institute, and trained in some Philipino arts emphasizing knife fighting. I spent 6 years active duty and 4 years reserves. I’ve seen real combat in Philippines against communist guerillas (now referred to as terrorists), and in the first Iraq action known as desert storm.

What I learned from all this is that ideologies and traditional philosophies don’t mean shit, you do what ever it takes to get the job done. This means looking at things with a modern scientific microscope, not some outdated piece of equipment. Karate has a lot of great techniques but its training is not geared towards real violence. Karate training is geared towards perfection of techniques and is very good at doing that but falls short in its application.

It’s not that I think Karate is totally worthless it’s that I have found there are better systems and philosophies out there. Others I’ve met who began in Karate and then went on to non-traditional systems are in agreement that there are better systems.

Examples of impractical Karate training.
1) Floor work- Marching up and down the floor punching, kicking, blocking thin air.
2) Katas.
3) Light contact sparring, sparring for points.
4) Many Karate blocks don’t work or they are used inappropriately (like a low block to block a MT style round kick ouch).
5) Little or no contact to the head.
6) Karate sparring: no throws or takedowns allowed (except maybe for sweeps), and no ground fighting.
7) Self-defense philosophies are usually out dated and many of the techniques won’t work.

A recent example of a Karate SD class that I went to: (The example was for a one handed lapel grab). The teacher stated “you can’t just hit the guy because you can go to jail, so instead grab his hand like this and twist like so…” I say just hit the damn fool! I say jam your finger in his eye, kick him in the groin, strike his throat, palm heel strike his face, counter grab and pull him into a head but, clinch him and knee him, and etc. Be brutal and decisive. Non-lethal control techniques are good for cops and correction officers to know, but the average citizen doesn’t need them when confronted by a crazed maniac hell bent on taking his head off.

Example 2: When teaching a technique for a choke the teacher has a student grab his throat. That’s fine, you need to learn the choke from this position, but I think you should start by learning how to protect your airway by foot movement (if you know it’s coming), or by tucking your chin in, Moving hands to obstruct attacker from ever getting the choke. Doing sensitivity drills to develop awareness neuro-motor memorization to be able to dip chin as an opponent reaches in. Then teach what to do if someone actually has you in a choke.

Karate only cares if you know the technique, not so much if you can actually use it.

Another example: In a test Karate will have the student stand there while another student is told to perform an attack, lets say a double lapel grab; the defender has to defend with a certain defense. The attacker grabs the defender does A,B,C, In the correct order and it looks good because the attacker did his A,B,Cs correctly and neat. Every technique is nice and pretty the result the defender passes test.

I respond to this by saying don’t tell the defender how he will be attacked, don’t tell the defender which technique to use. He just needs to respond appropriately to the attack. The attacker will be aggressive and will not cooperate with the defense. I don’t care what technique the defender uses, I don’t care if it’s pretty or ugly. I don’t care if his first attempts fail. What I want to see does he immediately move into another technique and in the end is he successful with his attempt at defending himself. Result Pass or fail on his ability to defend himself not on how he looks or on the perfect order of A.B.C. The student gains true confidence not false confidence. Application is more important t than the way the technique looks.

The most important thing to self-defense (besides avoidance) karate doesn’t teach at least not in most dojos is mind set!

The best defense is not to be there but if you are then put up a ferocious offense. Don’t fight fair, fight nasty (no budo code).

Unfortunately one of the true realities of street combat is the winner will be the one who is willing to escalate the violence the furthest the fastest. This means you need to be vicious from the get go and end the fight swiftly and decisively. Yes there needs to be attention spent on the legal aspects and use of force issues but if and when the decision has been made that you have to defend yourself then fight balls out.

One other thing I have never been to a Karate school that performed realistic scenarios with actors, props, and scripts

Example: Go out into a parking lot at night (low light conditions) wearing street clothes (jeans T-shirt, tennis shoes, and etc), sit in your car jamming to some tunes and have someone approach and grab (or punch at you) through the open window, or pull the door open and stick a knife in your face.

Some Karate instructors do these thing but they are the exception to the rule. Remember if they do these things it’s the individual instructors not the system, or style that these scenarios are a part of.

As for the Sai, if you use a knife train with a knife not a sai!

Also see the threads on how to fix karate and whats wrong with karate.

[Hikage]

Words from a warrior

Ladies and gentlemen, you have a choice on your hands. You have to ask yourself, why do I practice the martial arts? Is it for the lame reasons that get people killed: I want to keep in shape, etc.
Or do we do it to become warriors? The MA's were orginally designed to be used in the battlefield not in the legalistic I'll sue you and your dog in which we now live. So here's the watered down version of the question? Are you a wimp or a warrior?
The above words by Darrianation are the words of a warrior. I can do nothing to add to her words, but I place my full endorsement, for what it's worth (if anything), behind all she says. She's someone who has learned how to discern between crap and worthwhile technique and has probably seen people who use crap technique die on the battlefield using their crap.

So what are you, wimp or warrior?

-Hikage

PS> Thank you Darrianation for the edification.

[jubaji]

I can do nothing to add to her words, but I place my full endorsement, for what it's worth (if anything)

..............................

nothing

[IPON]

Ladies and gentlemen, you have a choice on your hands. You have to ask yourself, why do I practice the martial arts? Is it for the lame reasons that get people killed: I want to keep in shape, etc.
Or do we do it to become warriors? The MA's were orginally designed to be used in the battlefield not in the legalistic I'll sue you and your dog in which we now live. So here's the watered down version of the question? Are you a wimp or a warrior?
The above words by Darrianation are the words of a warrior. I can do nothing to add to her words, but I place my full endorsement, for what it's worth (if anything), behind all she says. She's someone who has learned how to discern between crap and worthwhile technique and has probably seen people who use crap technique die on the battlefield using their crap.

So what are you, wimp or warrior?

-Hikage

PS> Thank you Darrianation for the edification.

She???........................

[Hikage]

She???........................

I assume, listed in profile as wife. I assume that means she is one, not has one. I apologize if I am in error. I needed a pronoun as repeating Darrianation over and over again gets annoying.

[IPON]

I assume, listed in profile as wife. I assume that means she is one, not has one. I apologize if I am in error. I needed a pronoun as repeating Darrianation over and over again gets annoying.

No Problem, I never checked the profile I assumed Darrianation was a male from his avatart amd other posts

[darrianation]

Ladies and gentlemen, you have a choice on your hands. You have to ask yourself, why do I practice the martial arts? Is it for the lame reasons that get people killed: I want to keep in shape, etc.
Or do we do it to become warriors? The MA's were orginally designed to be used in the battlefield not in the legalistic I'll sue you and your dog in which we now live. So here's the watered down version of the question? Are you a wimp or a warrior?
The above words by Darrianation are the words of a warrior. I can do nothing to add to her words, but I place my full endorsement, for what it's worth (if anything), behind all she says. She's someone who has learned how to discern between crap and worthwhile technique and has probably seen people who use crap technique die on the battlefield using their crap.

So what are you, wimp or warrior?

-Hikage

PS> Thank you Darrianation for the edification.

Hey guys I am not taking any offense but I am a guy. In my profile I mean I have a wife and 2 kids. I have corrected my profile as not to confuse anyone again.

[Hikage]

Hey guys I am not taking any offense but I am a guy. In my profile I mean I have a wife and 2 kids. I have corrected my profile as not to confuse anyone again.

Hmmm... <embarassed> sorry.

-Hikage

[Thai Bri]

How can you advise on the best martial art when you don't even know what gender you are?

Haw haw haw!

[guy incognito]

Chosing a martial art is a personal thing.Its like buying a car.You have to chose the one that suits you so go and test drive so to speak as many styles as are available to you is your area.If your short and not very powerfull TKD MIGHT not be much good to you.If your a large person you might not like things that are very intricate.So get out there and try as much as you can till you find what suits.

[MADDOG]

Hello,

I really enjoyed and agree with the comments made by darrianation!

There are very few martial artists that teach martial.

The majority of MA schools teach a political correct form of exercise that is either antiquated in its approach to self-defense or is just a scam. The term McDojo is perfect in summing up the warrior value of present MA.

A street fighter has very few techniques, but their skill is battle tested and they know that it works. The street fighter who is going to attack, rape, kidnap or murder has a different mentality than the rest of our society. They will play only by one rule – win at any cost. They are battle harden and ready to make war. Not all, but most, MA who train at the chain are not ready to deal emotionally or physically with such an attacker.

If the MA where teaching practical self defense then why is there a sudden marketing of new self-defense art’s like Krav Maga. I will only speak for the USA, in that our public, post 911 does not want to play the games of modern MA. The American public does not want to learn a pretty dance, dress in a strange outfit, speak a foreign language or play a sport. They are afraid and wish to learn something today, that they can utilize, so they can survive an encounter. How many MA school separate their curriculum into a form – fighting – weapons and self defense night. I taught everything that you did was for self-defense?

My beloved TKD fits into the above description. TKD use to be kicks to the knee, a punch to the throat, a tearing of soft tissue, a throw, a choke, a lock and what ever. Now only a few teach this – I wonder why?

Ed Barton

[darrianation]

How can you advise on the best martial art when you don't even know what gender you are?

Haw haw haw!

Well it depends on if it's a light or heavy day

[darrianation]

Hmmm... <embarassed> sorry.

-Hikage

No worries!