so,many of you think Aikido is no use for 'real world' app', eh?, hmm

[Aikiguy]

Remember those so called police officers are learning selected techniques that specifically apply to their specialized work. These selected techniques are mainly compliant controls that professionals need to know. They do not spend years learning Aikido. Aikido as with most MAs have some good functional stuff in it, however like many MAs it has stuff that isn’t so functional.

The average Joe non-professional doesn’t need to worry about controlling someone in compliant holds. In Self-defense our job is to cause as much damage as possible as fast as we can. The cops need to control subjects with as little damage as they possibly can. There is a difference.

I certainly agree with you ... but I'm not sure what point you were making relative to my post. I was pointing out that the reason why people have the impression that aikido consists mainly of dealing with wrist grabs is because that *is* a big focus, though admittedly not the whole thing. Personally, I'd like a little more realism in the types of attacks and where to take them (applying atemi, going to the ground, etc) but I've been told "that's not aikido". Again, if saying that a particular range of combat or the use of certain options if they present themselves is simply not the philosophy of that art, then I dunno ... I feel it's too limiting, especially if people are learning aikido for self defense.

In response to Chris Davis 200 ... it looks like uke had to be carried off the mat ... I'd say it was all over as soon as he hit the ground too

[darrianation]

I certainly agree with you ... but I'm not sure what point you were making relative to my post. I was pointing out that the reason why people have the impression that aikido consists mainly of dealing with wrist grabs is because that *is* a big focus, though admittedly not the whole thing. Personally, I'd like a little more realism in the types of attacks and where to take them (applying atemi, going to the ground, etc) but I've been told "that's not aikido". Again, if saying that a particular range of combat or the use of certain options if they present themselves is simply not the philosophy of that art, then I dunno ... I feel it's too limiting, especially if people are learning aikido for self defense.

In response to Chris Davis 200 ... it looks like uke had to be carried off the mat ... I'd say it was all over as soon as he hit the ground too

It's just that I hear this one all the time "they teach it to cops" as if they teach it to cops then it has absolute relevence to the rest of us.

[Aikiguy]

It's just that I hear this one all the time "they teach it to cops" as if they teach it to cops then it has absolute relevence to the rest of us.

Gotcha, I understand now. Yeah, cops have to worry about another set of rules altogether which don't necessarily apply to us common folk. Their testimony, though encouraging, is not the final word.

[SteveSeagal]

some good and variable views in this thread. Lets remember that there are quite a few considerably different types of Aikido, some of which are 'hard' styles.
In Japan, a number of law enforcement organisations are indeed taught Aikido along with different arts, as mentioned above, not that this in itself means anything completely decisive, but the fact remains that to work in such a field does require practicality.

[Tom Yum]

Aren't harder styles of Aikido more closely related to aikijutsu, the parent style? Seems like harder style aikido uses strikes and stomping moves as softeners to set up for elbow/shoulder/neck manipulation. It just seems like more of an emphasis on breaking rather than what we see as friendly aikido taught in most dojos..

[Broadsword2004]

What's with the Steven Seagal name, Seagal is nothing but an actor who likes to act like he's so elite when he's some elder guy with a beer belly nowadays, and he got choked out by Gene LaBelle in a fight. He can never even take a single shot in a fight scene in any of his movies.

I believe one can be proficient in aikido, but of all the demonstrations I have seen, none impressed me (though I haven't seen too many). But still, I like the master of my former style's parent style, Sosho Durant. He was highly proficient in karate, aikijutsu, jujutsu, kobudo, and iai jutsu.

Anyhow, the current "master," who was a student of him, some dude with a beer belly named Hanshi Cavalier, told a story once of back in the early 80s I think it was, where they had finished up class and went to a nearby carnival for some food. Anyhow, he hears some motorcycles near the back, so he goes around, and finds Durant in the middle of a circle of motorcycle guys riding around him. So he thinks, "Oh no, Sosho is a tough cookie, but he's gonna get the crap kicked outta him." He said he never saw a man move so fast. He said Sosho knocked like 4 or 5 of them off their bikes, and struck them all in the groin, and the other 3 or 4 rode off in a panic.

[medic06]

The founder of Aikido once said something to the effect of "in combat, Aikido is 80% hitting. . ." or something along that line. . . .

[HuSanYan]

The founder of Aikido once said something to the effect of "in combat, Aikido is 80% hitting. . ." or something along that line. . . .

great.....

[m.artist]

I would be keen to hear why it seems that so many of you young folks around the internet think that Aikido is not so good for real world application.
Is it because it requires a serious amount of time to develop? or is it because it's not a sport?, or are there other reasons?

I would very much like to hear the opinions of the members of this rather well trafficked web forum.

Best Wishes.
Steve.

well sure it has it's merit, to some extent, but if i wanted rbsd, then i wouldn't go for aikido

[Aikiguy]

The founder of Aikido once said something to the effect of "in combat, Aikido is 80% hitting. . ." or something along that line. . . .

I think it's "90% of aikido is atemi", or striking. Which sort of begs the question, "Where is striking taught in aikido today??"

Some will say it's to be used only for distraction. Others say it's for incapacitation. Others will say it's to create openings so in the event you need to use them, they are there ... but to actually use them is counter to the philosophy of aikido.

My opinion is that if we're never taught how to take advantage of the openings, why bother creating them to start with? If aikido is for self defense, among other things, how can something that is supposedly such a large component of the art be neglected?

[areusafe]

so,many of you think Aikido is no use for 'real world' app', eh?, hmm

Hello Group,

Great Spirit PLEASE let someone with some of the mentality shown in this thread be my next attacker. ie: Large Egos or Those who assume things about people instead of finding out the truth or those martial artists who have little underatanding of BUDO and less of eastern philosophy.

YOU are your own worst enemy.

In SD and Combatives, an apt principle is: Use that which is useful. Discard that which is not.

Respectfully,

[Aikiguy]

In SD and Combatives, an apt principle is: Use that which is useful. Discard that which is not.

Amen, and yea verily.

[ZenZhu]

Having had a couple of years of aikido, I can say I liked it very much. I found the principles of using your opponents momentum, energy, etc. to redirect their attacks and shift them off-balance to be very useful. It's been a couple of years since I moved and ceased my practice, however. I'm presently looking to either get back to it, or something that is similar, but incorporates more work with strikes.

I didn't really feel the application of the principles relied on precise timing, but flexibility in a situation.. the ability to percive where the "eneregies" (weight, momentum, etc.) were going and use that to your advantage. Perhaps it was the way my sensei taught it, but it really didn't seem like a practice in "if your attacker does A, do B" and then practicing it in a very rigid manner. As partners, the students resisted what the one doing the technique was trying to do. If you messed up, you didn't have a compliant partner that just fell anyway.. you had someone standing there, poking you in the sides or tapping you on the head (as opposed to just nailing you) to say "I'm not budging.. figure out what to do."

Obviously, when exercising a technique, the idea was to learn what made that technique work... like keeping the attacker's arm or head or whatever close to your body. When sparring, we did a mix of one, two, and three people teamed up on one person. During the sparring, the emphasis was on doing what worked.. not being an expert in the technique.. but learning to spot openings and exploit them to deter or deflect your assailants. We had one guy called "Drunken Monkey" who would try and get very fancy. His sparring sessions showed the attackers weren't being compliant. Many times, Monkey would try and use a "showy" technique.. something that you'd see in the movies.. and find himself on the bottom of a dog pile because he messed up.

Our sensei applauded us for using unconventional methods. For example, there were a couple of punching bags in the room that we would rent out. Several students, if in that corner, would duck behind them and swing them at the attackers. In another instance, I was the "victim" after having been the attacker all night. My legs were tired and killing me. As one person rushed me, my right leg gave out and buckled under as I was redirecting his attack. As a result, I fell to my knees.. but, in the process, directed my attacker's force downward, taking him down beside me. I was able to quickly recover and get out of the way as the other two attackers descended upon me. Our sensei gave a little comment of praise for using the situation to my advantage, and being flexible enough to turn a moment of weakness into an opportunity.

I think that's where one of aikido's strengths lies early in the learning curve.. with the flexibility to adapt to a situation. This is also one place, however, I would like to find a martial art that employs more strikes, so that I can further be prepared to adapt to a situation where striking may be necessary. I have some background with Yoshukai karate, but it's been a while, so I'm sure my technique is lacking.

So, I think aikido definitely has a place in the realm of real world combat. But, like any martial art, the key is to adapt to the situation and not rely on some dancecard routine of left arm goes here, left leg goes there, step, pivot, dip, fandango. Coming from a graphic arts background, I think the term martial arts is aptly applied. With something like figure drawing, there are "rules" to help construct a figure.. the head resembles an egg shape.. the top of the ears line up with the eyes, the bottom with the nose.. the ribcage is large enough to contain the head.. etc. Once you learn to apply these rules on an intellectual level, you then move to applying them on an instinctual level. Once you get to that point, artistic innovation comes from breaking the rules.. yet still being mindful of them.

With martial arts, I think it's similar. You practice routines and techniques and repetition in the dojo to move from an intellectual application of the "rules" of a technique to an instinctual use of them. Once they become more instinctual, you have the fundamentals there... and you can "break" the rules as the situation applies.

I've been taught with the philosophy that there are three levels of confllict.

First, avoid the conflict.. walk away, don't rise to their baits, etc.

The second is deter the conflict... if the person assaults you but.. say they're drunk and can be easily put down by sidestepping their attack.. deter the conflict with a minimal expenditure of energy. In other words, dodge, block, trip... try and resolve it quickly and as peaceably as possible.

Third.. if all else fails, and the attacker persists, do what is necessary to protect yourself, even if it requires the use of extreme force and methods.

So, slipping over to Hollywood, let's take one of Jet Li's or Jackie Chan's signature moves. Some guy comes at you in a bar.. arms flailing. He's drunk and mean and looking to tear you up. Sure, you've practiced your katas and sparred with partners. You know if he's going to come at you with a right hook you can use this or that technique on him and probably be successful. Or.. you have a handy chair next to you that you can grab and throw in his way to trip him up, clobber him, etc. It's not exactly what you learned in the dojo.. but it will serve the purpose of ending the conflict.

So, aikido may not be the showiest martial art. It may not be ideal for all situations. But there are concepts in it that are well applied to many situations, and it offers you a kind of branching heirarchy of techniques that can start with one move, and branch into others (e.g., lock the fellow's arm.. then either drop him, kick him, etc.). If emphasis is placed on having the flexibility to adapt to a situation as it changes, aikido can be quite powerful.

[HtTKar]

So, I think aikido definitely has a place in the realm of real world combat. But, like any martial art, the key is to adapt to the situation and not rely on some dancecard routine of left arm goes here, left leg goes there, step, pivot, dip, fandango. Coming from a graphic arts background, I think the term martial arts is aptly applied. With something like figure drawing, there are "rules" to help construct a figure.. the head resembles an egg shape.. the top of the ears line up with the eyes, the bottom with the nose.. the ribcage is large enough to contain the head.. etc. Once you learn to apply these rules on an intellectual level, you then move to applying them on an instinctual level. Once you get to that point, artistic innovation comes from breaking the rules.. yet still being mindful of them.

I think I'll have to use this one, if you dont mind?
great post.

I do have a question for you though, and it was asked earlier in the thread.
One person stated that 90% of Aikido is striking, yet you feel that you would want to take a seperate art to learn striking in particular. Where is striking taught in your Aikido today?

Sparring against multiple partners is necessary, and we do it all the time. But are you guys striking, or just wrestling?

[ZenZhu]

During our sparring, the attackers were striking.. though it wasn't with any real intent. I think the matches would have benefitted from from the assailants putting more into their attack.. not so much that they'd put you in the hospital if you messed up, but enough that the match seemed a little more of an honest attempt to avoid getting hit and less "ritualized" in feeling.

As for incorporating more strikes, the form of Aikido I was taking (it's been so long I forgot the name) didn't utilize strikes in most of the techniques. Punches and kicks were typically reserved for "coercing" the other person... kicking the back of their knees, punching to the face to make them recoil, etc. There weren't a lot of strikes incorporated into the actual tactics. For example, you might see someone deflect a punch to the outside, direct the arm in a circle, draw the head in and drop the person.. but you wouldn't see them do the same deflecting technique followed by a knee to the stomach, a stomp-kick to the back of the legs and followed up with a roundhouse to the back (or, alternately, the head if you were really wanting to take them down).

I suppose, in a way, a front-kick to the stomach or knees before the attacker even gets to you isn't entirely in line with Aikido principles... but my interest is taking these overall principles and learning to be flexible with them as the situation demands.... applying grapples, throws, and locks when appropriate, and punches and kicks when necessary. Sure, anyone can throw punches and kicks into a technique, but it'd be nice to put a little bit of focus on them to develop proper form. I suppose part of the secret is to find what works best for you. Some people might have more of a sense for the circular motions of Aikido, while others might be more attuned to the fluid combos of kung fu. I guess this is another way that "martial arts" is an apt term... each artist needs to find the style that works best with their natural abilities and methods.