The Bow

[HtTKar]

I was just reading some more about the Samurai. The bow was traditionally held as first place among the weapons of the samurai. OK, thats fine. But what really got me was that their handmade composite bows had a recorded accurate range of 144 yards in a flat trajectory. This comes from the lenght of the corridor in Reigh-ohin temple, where there is an annual festival every year; participants have to shoot arrows down the corridor at a target.

The corridor is 144yrds, and the samurai are accurate. This means hitting the targets repeatedly.

It also spoke of Minamoto Tametomo who was such a strong archer that he shot an arrow into an enemies chest which passed through him and killed the man behind him also. Tametomo is also regarded as sinking boats with his arrows.

Now I am very good with a bow. Generally I can shoot a cluster the size of a nickel at 60yrds, but being accurate at 144yrds with a homemade bow blows my mind. Shooting a bow through an armoured person is beyond me, I know and have never even tried. Is this data accurate? Could it be that their homemade bows were better than modern bows, or do I really need that much more practice?

[LoneWolf1]

I think u need more practice, there are many different bows around the world and most have higher pull weights than traditional yumi. The greatest archers in japanese history may of had battle experience and/ or years of training. Thats why they were so good.

[HtTKar]

Yes, thats probably what it is.
But I am by no means using a traditional Yumi. I definitely do need more practice. Thinking that this was an exageration (or took a lifetime of devotion), I looked up some more information, and found what traditional archers are competing in today.

"For some, it is accomplishment; ... or splitting a 2 inch wand at 100 yards,"

Is there anybody on this forum that can actually shoot this well with a bow? If so, could you post some information about training, or the type of bow you use? I use a 65lb compound bow and have never hit a target at 100yrds. I wouldnt even aim that far, for fear of a foul shot. Do they do these competitions in windproof areas? I thought I was pretty good, until I see that feats like this are common.

[LoneWolf1]

I've tried hiting a deer target at about 100 yards with a 75lb compound bow. Pretty hard, all you can really do to train for shooting that far is shoot over and over at long range targets. It's all about finding the arc you need to get it to the target, after that practice helps take it from a seldom event to a refined science.

[HtTKar]

yeah, that was one of my points there. I can imagine shooting with an arch, but that would not be an ideal situation. Shooting an arrow that far with an arch is not going to be very accurate outside in the wind. You might get some lucky shots, but I cant imagine it being consistant.

These guys had a recorded accurate range of 144 yards in a flat trajectory. A flat trajectory is like shooting a bullet at that range. They must have had skills and a bow like those of Odysseus in the Illiad and the Odyssey. I wonder how strong of a bow it would take to be consistant at that range.

[LoneWolf1]

Whoa i didn't even realize u typed they shot flat, they must have bows with pull wieghts in the 100-200 range.

[MatthewAlphonso]

It must also be remembered that these stories you get this from are primarily legends, or else are translations of translations of oral story (similar to today's bible). It would be impossible to shoot through a fully armoured target and kill the man behind him. It is far more plausible that the arrow deflected off of one man's armour and hit his buddy in the neck. 144 yards, flat trajectory, I can only imagine this being a one time shot, a bow that strong would be usless in warfare as one would have to draw several times. the same is true with bows in the 200lb range (A Mary Rose war bow was only 125 lbs, i know it's European but the same principle is applied). I have, however, read that Chinese Bow Men would train up to a 300 lb bow, this would make a bit more sense(note, I said training upto, not actually using in combat), using such a bow in warfare is infeasible.

[sojobow]

Composite / Reflex versus Samuria Yumi

I was just reading some more about the Samurai. The bow was traditionally held as first place among the weapons of the samurai. OK, thats fine. But what really got me was that their handmade composite bows had a recorded accurate range of 144 yards in a flat trajectory.

Point of interest for which I need confirmation: Are you sure your readings designate that Samurai used a "Composite Bow?"

Asymmetrical composite bows

http://www.archery2000.co.uk/traditional_bows.htm

http://www.krackow.com/easterneurope.html

Samurai/Japanese Bows (non-Asymmetrical):

http://www.zenko.org/bows.htm

http://www.lisashea.com/japan/articles/bowweap.html

would appreciate a definition of "composite."

Also, I personally believe the Ninja of fy 900-1200 did not use the same bow as the Samurai. I think the Ninja used a "Composite Reflex" type bow as used by the Chinese, Korean and Hun warriors. But expressing this causes great anger within the Traditional Japanese Ninjutsu Ryu-ha. So, if someone could explain the difference between a Composite Bow, A Reflex Bow, A Composite Reflex Bow and the Samurai Yumi, I'd personally appreciate the input. Just can't see/imagine a Ninja with an 8 foot Bow.

[sojobow]

No need to respone HtTkar. I found a website for knucklehead dummies like myself that explained the terms: Composite, Reflex, Composite Reflex Bows. Too simple so I'm really embarrased now.

[MatthewAlphonso]

I think that the Ninja used whatever would work. I don't really think that had the money (for the most part) to really complain, would they use the highest quality they could? of course. They were a utilitarian people. If they could use something it would be used. If it didn't work, it was discarded. The current obsession with tradition is actually harmful to that way that was Ninjutsu. Ninja used guns, I'm sure modern ninja (I hear you all snickering) use modern weapons, that work. whether it be an old weapon modified for modern use or a completly modern craft isn't important. Back on subject, I believe that a re-curve/flex bow is a relatively modern creation (not quite sure though) And I saw a modern recreation of the bamboo yumi, it was beautiful and definitly composite. It was also curious in that if it was grabbed and pulled incorrectly it would snap rendering it useless.

[HtTKar]

By composite bow, I mean that the made their bows by scraping the rounded frontal surface of the bow stave and gluing on a bamboo strip for elasticity. This was then sandwiched in between two more peices of bamboo, glued together; reinforced with cane, knotted and tied around the stave. By gluing several wood and bamboo strips together perpendicularly, the bows were made much stronger
198cm long, reinforced with 5 turns of cane, each not ~30cm apart.

The bows I am speaking of are not the fuetake yumi, but higoyumi.

144 yards, flat trajectory, I can only imagine this being a one time shot,

There is an annual festival (toshiya) where participants shoot arrows down the corridor in Renge-ohin (sanjusangendo) temple at a target.
They shoot over a 24hr period on thier knees without a break.

http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/virtual...o.htmlRecorded high was 8133 out of 13053 shots by Wasa DAIHACHIRO in 1686. Future linear accelerator will also need similar super human efforts for linear acceleration.

Here is says the corridor is only 131yrds.

And the story about sinking ships

http://www.beast.pp.se/history/Japanese.html
During the war of the Heike (the middle ages) one master archer sunk two boats with one shot of his massive bow. In those days bows were measured by how many men were required to string it, the average being a three man bow, this monster that sunk two boats being a seven man bow!

Time to get my bow out and practice.

[MatthewAlphonso]

A bow that would need to be strung by 7 men could not be pulled by one. It's simply impossible. even a 2 man bow would be impractical in warfare. The Strength training required would take too long and would not be conducive to training an army. That's one of the reasons most archery divisions trained in mass fire. It has a larger psychological impact as well as being far more likely to take more people out than simply choosing a target individually.

About that temple festival, it does not mention that they could not arc their shots, only that they were not permitted to hit the ceiling, 5.5 yards is 16' 6'', it would be quite possible to sucessfully arc and hit the target.

Furthermore, sinking a boat, especcially a warship, would be quite an unimaginable feet, Even todays compound bows couldn't pierce a solid wood ship, much less two. In any case, regular arrows would not be used against a ship, it would be flaming arrows, much more useful.

[HtTKar]

A bow that would need to be strung by 7 men could not be pulled by one. It's simply impossible. even a 2 man bow would be impractical in warfare

It is much harder to string a bow than it is to pull the string back to shoot. With a composite bow it would be nearly impossible to hold the bow open and put string on at the same time...not enough hands. One man holds both ends of the bow and pushes in the middle with both feet to bend the bow, while another strings it. I would guess that any bow over 50lbs would be too difficult to string by yourself. Why wouldn't a 50-60lb bow be Practical in warfare? What weight limit is there for a bow to be practical in warfare? As long as the bow was light, and could shoot arrows accurately over a long distance it would seem practical.

[LoneWolf1]

I'm pretty sure the japanese war bow was about 100lbs thats about the same as an english longbow and they were used in war. You have to think some warriors who spent there entire life training with a weapon would be able to use a bow that may have been 200lbs or more as a practical war implement. Though I doubt many (if anyone) could do that these days, after all who in this day and age can say they devote nearly all there time to using ancient weapon or war.

[MatthewAlphonso]

Think about what you're saying dude. A war bow that heavy would not be practical, nor would it be necessary in war.

However, if you can point to any archeological digs, or even a museum peice that is 200 lbs or more, and has been used in battle, then yes I will accept what you say as fact. But you will be hard pressed to find any such bow because it is not feasible and unnecessary.