Can Karate be effective?

[zhorner]

i know im a little late on this post but...

can karate be effective?

i dont know about all karate, but i do some MMA training with this guy who took kyokushin karate for a long while, (i dont remember exactly how many years, i estimate around 3-5).

anywho, this guy kicks the shit out of me, and i out weight him by about 40 pounds. granted, i am fairly new and not a stand up fighter, but still i should be able to get him every once and a while...but noooo the son-bitch just wont tap!

i know he has done a lot of other training but kyokushin is his main base.

it also might just be the individual, because their are some well respected fighters around where i live who cant make the little bastard give up.

one day he will fall...and the student will become the teacher!

[bodhisattva]

i know im a little late on this post but...

can karate be effective?

i dont know about all karate, but i do some MMA training with this guy who took kyokushin karate for a long while, (i dont remember exactly how many years, i estimate around 3-5).

anywho, this guy kicks the shit out of me, and i out weight him by about 40 pounds. granted, i am fairly new and not a stand up fighter, but still i should be able to get him every once and a while...but noooo the son-bitch just wont tap!

i know he has done a lot of other training but kyokushin is his main base.

it also might just be the individual, because their are some well respected fighters around where i live who cant make the little bastard give up.

one day he will fall...and the student will become the teacher!

A guy training at SBG portland (he's from SBG Denmark, visiting us for extra training) said he worked with a Kyokushin guy who was a serious hardass. He was stunned. He said the only fault is that they don't have punches to the head, so they fight with their hands down at chest level. He said this guy had trained attacking and defending the head with the hands, and was a real hardass.
Thomas is a tough guy himself, so that guy must have been pretty good to earn his respect.
---
Matt Thornton, president of SBG, travels to karate and tae kwon do schools occasionally, and holds seminars at their instructors request.

He teaches them how to train in an "alive" fashion - to prepare people for real fighting situations and competetive fighting.

If this trend continues, there will come a day when MMA guys rarely dis on Karate and TKD.

A good example is "Canada's Best Karate" run by the Sweeney's.

https://www.canadas-best.com/

any mma fighter that expected those guys to be "karate geeks" would be in for a big surprise.
I just went to their site, apparently they had Erik Paulson in to do a seminar recently as well.
Definitely not the "karate" that MMA guys are always ripping on. If more karate schools go in this direction, Karate would be revered again.
Evolve. Grow.

[Tom Yum]

Can karate be effective?

Yes.

As soon as the karate schools start doing live training, you will see people lining up at their doors.

Some schools teach you 1,000 techniques up to the black belt level. The problem is that most of these techniques never get used in any kind of sparring or randori. The only exception?

Kyokushin. Those guys use basic straight punches, front snap kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks, spinning kicks and knees - 6 techniques, while sparring. IMHO (and humble it is) people should be using and perfecting less than 10 techniques while sparring.

Sure you can practice a dragon fist strike from the horse stance and get it looking nice, but the mere drill of practicing it from the horse stance 1,000 times will teach you to strike with your arms and not with your entire body.

[millie]

dim mak
is what kara te kata is about
ask dillman

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Yes.

As soon as the karate schools start doing live training, you will see people lining up at their doors.

Some schools teach you 1,000 techniques up to the black belt level. The problem is that most of these techniques never get used in any kind of sparring or randori. The only exception?

Kyokushin. Those guys use basic straight punches, front snap kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks, spinning kicks and knees - 6 techniques, while sparring. IMHO (and humble it is) people should be using and perfecting less than 10 techniques while sparring.

Sure you can practice a dragon fist strike from the horse stance and get it looking nice, but the mere drill of practicing it from the horse stance 1,000 times will teach you to strike with your arms and not with your entire body.

Kyokushin does basics from sanchin dachi which immobilizes you almost as much as the horse stance
This was one of the reasons why I liked Wado, strait away everyting in motion and noone exempt from sparring
The 1000 techniques...come on these are just variations of the same technique. For instance it shouldn't matter if you perform certain techniques with a knifehand or a hammer first or other example a jun tsuki with a seiken or a nukite ( normal fist or spearhand)

[Liquidsnake1500]

heard Kyokushin is pretty effective due to lots of sparr in early stages, also had a friend which did Kyokushin and he won 2 street fights.
used to take the piss cos i did shotokan which he said was very slow.

[47MartialMan]

Given the translation of Karate, and unarmed combat could be considered as such-however-

Karate can only be as effective to who is teaching what and the ability of the practitioner.

[Liquidsnake1500]

its also the techniques that the practitioner uses needs to be effective and i think karate is no bad its just its needs more sparring less kicking the air.

[47MartialMan]

its also the techniques that the practitioner uses needs to be effective and i think karate is no bad its just its needs more sparring less kicking the air.

Traditional Karate does not have or much emphasize kicks in the air.

[Blue Wave Gym]

effective for what? karate/tkd instructor says

if you mean for self defense than karate/tkd/kung fu and most other tma's (list ot long) need a major over hall
problem 1 .the master and instructors can't fight, how can you learn to fight from someone who can't fight
wats to fix the situation
1.eliminate the focus on b.s. techniques/training methods that aren't alive and hence don't work.
>>>why combat sports people are light years ahead of their tma counter parts
They spar and grapple hard to full contat against uncoperative opponents using realistic techniques. Both guys are trying to win and being uncoperative to their oppenent when grappling and sparring.
Stuf to get rid of
1.kata/forms/hyung/pomoose:total waste of time (what about the cordination you get from forms you say,can't you get combat specific cordination during sparring i.e. the closest you'll get to actuall combat)
2. 1,2, or 3 step sparring for self defense using punching kicking and joint locks that don't work(i.e. dojo techniques/"if I did this for real" type of stuff/ your practicing how to pull your technique and how to put on a show.
3. belt factories/passing people can who aren't ready/can't shit/kick or punch like shit enough said
4. kicking air then x-ray paer/focus paddles LOL beginners should first learn the technique in air but from the first lesson on they should be kicking/punching focus mitts/thai padds/body shields bags ect.
5. Sparring should be sex/age/size segrigated and hard to full contact using boxing gloves,shin pads foot pads and boxing head gear.
6. spend at least half of the time ground grappling
7. many tma people may be able to kick high and mid with power but their low kicks either suck or lack power because the only time they get to practice them is during non-contact self defense sparring so add a banna bag to every karate and tkd school
8. no mix clases adults at one time kids at the other no exceptions
9. abandon or practice less "dojo techniques" like joint lock that don't work,eye strikes/gouges/throat strikes and the like you can learn in abot a minuet and practice on your own at home.

So to sum up 50% of the time should be spent ethier hitting pads with boxing punches(traditional punch is crap) knees, elbows, low/ middle/ and *high kicks(*not for street though)
or hard contact sparring using the same techniques
the other 50% of time sould be spent grappling.

Result: 1. students who can take a punch/kick AND have good functional striking skills for self-defense
*maybe spend 1 day a mounth working on foul tactics like eye throat groin stuff
2. students who are comfortable in the clinch/on the ground and are versed in submissions

I know this would radically change many tma's and put alot for frauds wh ocan't fight/even defend themselves out of work but hey it's your money, your life and your ass so, think about it

[47MartialMan]

Hmmmnnn-interesting.

A)if you mean for self defense than karate/tkd/kung fu and most other tma's (list ot long) need a major over hall
It is not those arts, but its new-upcoming practitioners and upcoming instructors


B) problem 1 .the master and instructors can't fight, how can you learn to fight from someone who can't fight
This is a misconception. Many old-timers do instill hard fighting.


C)wats to fix the situation
1.eliminate the focus on b.s. techniques/training methods that aren't alive and hence don't work.
Because of the dilution of waiting to qualify proper students that become proper teachers. Out the "door" went the discipline to train hard for better skill and in the "door" was the primary concern for rank.


D)>>>why combat sports people are light years ahead of their tma counter parts
Not true. TMA had hard fights. Back in those eras, there were no rules-no worries about insurance and liability law suits. The average confrontation between martial artists were frequent. Not to mention other practitioners challenging others at other schools. Combat sport had rules. Open village, country, brawls did not. These martial artists would confront each other very much like two gunslingers in the West.


E) They spar and grapple hard to full contat against uncoperative opponents using realistic techniques. Both guys are trying to win and being uncoperative to their oppenent when grappling and sparring.
Again, a great misconception.


Stuf to get rid of
F) kata/forms/hyung/pomoose:total waste of time (what about the cordination you get from forms you say,can't you get combat specific cordination during sparring i.e. the closest you'll get to actuall combat)
True, some forms/kata/hyung, etc., are a waste. However, any routine or drill in any type of training could be considered as kata, form.


G) 1,2, or 3 step sparring for self defense using punching kicking and joint locks that don't work(i.e. dojo techniques/"if I did this for real" type of stuff/ your practicing how to pull your technique and how to put on a show.
Not sure what is meant here


H) belt factories/passing people can who aren't ready/can't shit/kick or punch like shit enough said
Yes, per C), the rank race is failing. Fighting skill (which took a "back-seat" to ranking decades ago) is becoming the fore-runner again.


I) kicking air then x-ray paer/focus paddles LOL beginners should first learn the technique in air but from the first lesson on they should be kicking/punching focus mitts/thai padds/body shields bags ect.
You are taking account of many "Occindental" schools and fusing them with all others. This is not correct to do so.


J) Sparring should be sex/age/size segrigated and hard to full contact using boxing gloves,shin pads foot pads and boxing head gear.
I disagree. Sparring should be mixed-matched to better develop skill against a variety of opponents.


K) spend at least half of the time ground grappling
Grappling isnt the true all saying that fights end on the ground. However, I agree to learn as many methods to become versitile.


L) many tma people may be able to kick high and mid with power but their low kicks either suck or lack power because the only time they get to practice them is during non-contact self defense sparring so add a banna bag to every karate and tkd school
Not so true. You are speaking in terms of modern schools that loose traditional values and training.


M) no mix clases adults at one time kids at the other no exceptions
Not sure what is meant here.


N) abandon or practice less "dojo techniques" like joint lock that don't work,eye strikes/gouges/throat strikes and the like you can learn in abot a minuet and practice on your own at home.
See L)


O) So to sum up 50% of the time should be spent ethier hitting pads with boxing punches(traditional punch is crap) knees, elbows, low/ middle/ and *high kicks(*not for street though) or hard contact sparring using the same techniques the other 50% of time sould be spent grappling.
Obviously you take a biased approach and have a great view on grappling. Karate, like many TMA, have been diluted to a "Modern Mess". These TMA were effective in their era. Some still train in fighting skill.


Result: 1. students who can take a punch/kick AND have good functional striking skills for self-defense
*maybe spend 1 day a mounth working on foul tactics like eye throat groin stuff
2. students who are comfortable in the clinch/on the ground and are versed in submissions

I know this would radically change many tma's and put alot for frauds wh ocan't fight/even defend themselves out of work but hey it's your money, your life and your ass so, think about it
"balderdash"...

[Tai Chi Fighter]

Karate does work

Hello,

I study the Eugue Ryu Style of Karate-do. I'm only an orange belt but I have seen that Karate techniques are very useful in a fight. If you'd like to look through the website it is www.budokaikarateclubofkansascity.com

[jubaji]

Hello,

I study the Eugue Ryu Style of Karate-do. [/url]

And your name is Tai Chi Fighter?

[Tai Chi Fighter]

Ah

You see my name is Tai Chi Fighter because I have studied Tai Chi Chuan longer than I have studied Karate.

[Uke]

To be honest, being a great fighter and being effective in the streets can be two different ballgames.

I know TMA karate men from both Shotokan and Goju in NY, and they are phenomenal fighters that would easily take out 85% of the JKD guys that I know. However, they are amazing athletes despite their arts, and very strong and fast. Fighting bouts takes stamina, strength, and speed. A solid street system doesn't require tremendous strength and athleticism. Self defense techniques have more to do with timing, speed and fluidity than power, strength and size. If that wasn't true than there would be no women self defense instructors, and there are some fantastic ones like Linda Ramzy Ranson who I've seen handle men.

Any TMA needs an overhaul in order to grow with the times. Karate is no exception. I agree with alot of things posted on this thread. Some I don't.

Kata doesn't need to be removed, just revamped as one step in the overhaul.

Belt factories will always exist, as I said above, Martial Arts today is business.

Sparring should NEVER be segregated. You'll never learn how to fight people of different sizes, strengths, ages.

I would not spend half the time ground grappling as putting that much emphasis on ground grappling would mean I advocate it as a means of urban warfare, which I don't. As I've said before, ground grappling should only be used to learn the fastest ways to escape the guard and mount, and reverse submissions. That's it. Being on your feet keeps you alive, not wrestling on the floor where you can't defend against weapons, multiple attackers or just simply run.

Strong low kicks have been in shotokan and definitely in Goju, so I don't agree. They've always been in Philipino arts like Kuntao as well as Savate.

Also, it is very necessary to practice wristlocks, eye gouges and such. Not because of the learning curve, but because it helps the practitioner to feel more comfortable doing damaging moves that they may be reluctant to do. Most people only "soft touch" when doing poison hand techniques. But with proper armor and headgear, they can put the full extent of their aggression into their technique. That's why in rape prevention classes, the uke or "live dummy" always has the full body suit on. So that women can get a feel of what its like to eye gouge, kick to the groin and strike to the throat full strength without pulling their punches like point karate.