A Non Biased Comparison

[paradoxbox]

Would you bet your dojo's mortgage that you could get a good ninjutsu guy in the mount in the first place?

Trolls

[JkD187]

u damn mcdojo blackbelts need a hobby

[jubaji]

Would you bet your dojo's mortgage that you could get a good ninjutsu guy in the mount in the first place?-

I'm not a BJJ-er, but could I take down a "ninjutsuka"? Sure.

[Hikage]

I'm not a BJJ-er, but could I take down a "ninjutsuka"? Sure.

We prefer the term "Pajama-wearing, funny slipper-toting, nerd-promoting, shiny object-throwing, all around ninja dude." In the future would you kindly respect the proper vocabulary.

-Hikage

[jubaji]

dogeza

We prefer the term "Pajama-wearing, funny slipper-toting, nerd-promoting, shiny object-throwing, all around ninja dude." In the future would you kindly respect the proper vocabulary.

-Hikage

sumimasen deshita!

I apologize. I don't know what came over me.

[LoneHusky]

I kinda consider myself a ninja even though I havn't taken ninjitsu.

[7yearsjudoka]

I kinda consider myself a ninja even though I havn't taken ninjitsu.

OK, you are a little bit of a confused whack IMHO.

[Drag'n]

Paradoxbox,
I'm curious. Your first couple of posts seemed to be saying that a judoka dosen't stand a chance of taking a ninjutsu practisioner to the ground. Supposedly because all the judo throws are already included in your curricullum. I find this somewhat presumptious and arrogant. Have you ever spared full on with a high level Judoka?
Just because you've "learned" the material dosen't mean you can pull it off against someone who specialises in it.
I'd be very surprised if a decent Judoka couldnt whip the ass of another MArtist in randori sparring, if the other guy spends alot of training time learning stand up fighting, weapons, atemi waza etc.

[paradoxbox]

I have sparred with fairly high level judoka. On my first day I didn't know anything about the rules and I wound up using an illegal technique to escape a choke on a brown belt. Getting into kumiuchi also caused problems for a nidan when I didn't know standing shoulder locks were a nono.

I do play judo and it's excellent, I enjoy it very much. But a lot of the stuff that's included in the old jujutsu schools is not taught at most judo schools (mostly arm techniques but also other extremely dangerous techniques, small joint manipulation, leg techniques, etc). Most judo schools don't teach atemiwaza either.

That being said, if I play randori on judo rules I get thumped almost every time by judoka who are more experienced than me, usually by a basic throw or a choke I don't know how to escape without resorting to 'hardcore violence'. On my rules they find it very difficult to even get within throwing distance because I do something they don't know how to deal with, totally illegal in judo and I don't stop once they hit the ground. Very good judoka are able to negate the advantage especially if they have more experience in me in the same or another similar system, but that's just common sense.

Take the normal judo rules out for randori and judo becomes a lot more dangerous. Teach atemiwaza and standing arm techniques and small joint manipulation (incl. wristlocks) and you probably have yourself something closer to what Kanou envisioned way back in the day, instead of how it's usually taught now.

Don't think I think judo is inferior or anything. A throw will knock a person out regardless of whether or not both parties are in a sporting environment, a drunk will go down just as hard as uke will. In my opinion the limitations of judo are self imposed. Take the rules out and it's basically just a gendai jujutsu ryu.

As far as randori, all good jujutsu schools do randori, or the students take up randori amongst themselves as homework away from the dojo. And I wasn't joking when I said that pretty much every judo throw is included within the genbukan, bujinkan, it's almost all pretty much there, in some form or another.. they are very comprehensive organizations. Whether or not someone knows the escapes to all of them is a different matter, but I will say that there are many escapes to popular judo throws included in the very basic levels of training in all 3 ninjutsu organizations. all trained very seriously even at the lowest ranks, and I can say for sure that a fair amount of those escapes are totally foreign concepts to judo (again most of them being illegal).

[Drag'n]

Good reply! For a moment I thought you might be one of these guys who liked to theorise about what his art can do without really testing it against other equally skilled MArtists from other styles. But you proved me wrong.
I have respect for other people who are wiiling to get out there and test themselves to really find out what they are and aren't capable of.

[shadowkiller]

who said i was a bjj macho guy....your making claims at face value,yes i study bjj but i also study wrestling boxing muay thai jkd concepts and a whole lot more.Thats not the point of my post my point was that there is no one who is guna get out of a mount by an experenced groundfighter by punching or grabbing his sac its just not guna happen.Groundfighting isnt just bjj so lets get that straight right there....and as for your ninjitsu...yes bjj and that ninjitsu art or w.e may have the same techniques but the training method and applications are very different which is why bjj is the prefered ground style...if you train against a person who is resisting what you are doing and not just someone who trains ninjitsu then congrats but if not dont gimme that ninjitsus secrect techniques will defeat all bullshit its been done to death.If your ninja techniques were so deadly i think everyone would be doing ninjitsu not bjj o and as for a "real" fight what makes you assume i wouldnt break a chair over your head first..o i know its bc im a sport fighter right?

No offense meant but the reason BJJ is so popular is due to the UFC. When the rules favour a style then you are bound to get quite a few wins. Again no offence meant, I would gladly study BJJ if there were a decent school near me.

[seanyseanybean]

There is a ninjutsu school about 30/40mins drive from me and i must admit i have been tempted to go.

But i still always remember this moment....

http://www.angelfire.com/ult/mmaclip/

and i can't help but be put off by it.

[Mr. Arieson]

I thought that clip was real funny..

Of course, a simple internet search shows no matches between This Morris guy and any real Bujinkan or Genbukan school. All the matches seem to be UFC and BJJ sites, forums and blogs.

So, because he calls himself Ninja means he is one?

First off, no real practioner would enter a ring in the UFC..what would be the point? Ninjustu is the art of stealth.

In Ninjutsu, you use anything and everything to win. The number one method is to not be where your opponent thinks you are going to be.

So, while I think it is real cute that "seanyseanybean" thinks he (or she) has let the cat out of the bag, and deflated the Ninja myth....it's absolutely not true. I have never heard of Morris outside of the UFC, so the fact that he is a real Ninja sounds kind of dubious to me.

In a dark alley, anyone of the green belts in my class could probably quickly kill a ring fighter.(more then likely)..but, like Paradoxbox said, by fighting according to rules, a practicioner of Ninja might lose in a ring against even a judo expert. That is because blinding powder, knives, swords, guns and claws on the feet and hands are not allowed in sports matches....

By the way, I think BJJ and Muay Thai are just great..but they rely on strength and speed to win....fine when you are 24 and in top shape, but not so fine when you are 60 and a mugger grabs you from behind.

[Mr. Arieson]

I want to add one thing...when I am out on the street, the last person I expect to attack me is a skilled BJJ or Muay Thai practioner. People like that (with those skills) rarely start fights..they may END them, but I highly doubt they are going to start a fight with someone. However, an unskilled mugger or gangbanger a-hole who may be brutal and used to fighting (but not expecting an eye gouge or nerve strike) is exactly perfect fodder for a black belt in Ninjutsu to practice on!!

There are a few BJJ schools and Muay Thai in my area, and I thought about learning....for about two seconds!

I would much rather learn an art that is modern yet ancient, and that Robert G, Jubaji, hikage, seanyseanybean and others highly dissaprove of! That's the one thing that really seals the deal for me!!

[seanyseanybean]

whoa there..

I'm not knocking ninjutsu nor did i think i had let the 'cat out of the bag.' I was being serious. Don't get so defensive. I was just playing devils advocate. I really do live near a Ninjutsu class and am considering going.

As for that Morris guy, On UFC dvd it says 'no one knows much about him, because he is a real ninja...'
I dunno what you wanna make of that, i'm just sharing the info, i don't have an opinion as to whether its true or not.
It showed him doing techniques against a sparring partner and it looked alright. His school's in Texas i think, i dont know what kind of ninjutsu he does though.

This is a forum, its for discussions, so lets play nice