Difference between Judo and Japanese Jujitsu

[Tant01]

Criminals and heros?

I know I've posted about this topic before, but at this point the topic is just flat out stale to me. If you've got rules and a ref. it's a sport fight, if you don't than your life is in danger and it's survival. Those who train for sport practice many techniques that are valid for surviving an assault, and those who train for self-defense will never get far if they ignore the fundamentals that are so important to a sportsman. In the end what difference does it make what you call it? A rose by any other name...

What of killing your enemies? Are there rules for war? Terms of engagement? Defensive strategies and techniques? Special maneuvers or secrets? (tricks or traps) Oversight or supervision? Punishment for those that violate the rules? Discipline? Ethics? A moral code of some kind? Weapons?
Trophies?

[Sagacious Lu]

What of killing your enemies? Are there rules for war? Terms of engagement? Defensive strategies and techniques? Special maneuvers or secrets? (tricks or traps) Oversight or supervision? Punishment for those that violate the rules? Discipline? Ethics? A moral code of some kind? Weapons?
Trophies?

Well, we have rules for war but we spend more time breaking them than we do enforcing them so they don't really amount to much I know the military uses some very sophisticated war games for training purposes. If you want to get down to it though most of what we call "martial arts" hasn't been used in war for generations. The guys who are really studying war spend their time learning to fire rifles, drive tanks and throw grenades; they don't spend much time at all on punching, kicking, or edged weapons. Those that are truly concerned with self-defense keep big dogs as pets (pretty soon I'll have my house fixed up well enough to get myself a puppy ) Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% when you call MMA, grapplers and boxers "players"; I understand the difference between the ring and the real world. I'm just tired of hearing people argue over who is or isn't a martial artist.

[danfaggella]

jubaji, strategy and fish have defining characteristics, and can be identified by non-masters of those respective fields.

You're still getting really frustrated and tossing in your insults and expressive smiley-faces, but you haven't layed down your defeinition, I'll go first and maybe you will follow and we can drop the insults and see why we disagree on calling wrestling a martial art.

(what I call) Martial Art: A system of self-defense, involving not only combative technique but a relative code of morality and philosophy. Not strictly of oriental decent, and sometimes practiced in a sportive form (Judo competition, San Shou, Thai boxing competition, ect....)

I also have to agree with Sagacious (as usualy) that calling something a martial art is just an abstraction. However there are some differences between combat sport and martial art. I can also see why most MMA/grapplers are refered to as players, because there certainly is a difference between people training to win a competition and those who learn more than kicking ass from the martial arts. I have great respect for most high level competaters in MMA/grappling, even if they aren't devouted to the martial way or anything, most are good people no matter how I classify them.

Anyone else with oppinions on the topic, please comment. This isn't just me and jubaji agruing, I want to see everyone elses perspective on the classification of a martial art.

[jubaji]

involving not only combative technique but a relative code of morality and philosophy.

You don't really understand either of those terms (and no, I don't intend to teach you) and are fixated in an infantile manner on pointless, empty distinctions.


Here's your smiley:

[danfaggella]

Oh alright, lets pretend that I'm not an honor role college student interested in philosophy and I knwo nothing of those two topics. Does that mean you can't post what you consider to be martial art? Can't we get down to buisness instead of those repeated insult attempts? Don't you want to know WHY we are arguing and WHY you're getting so pissed?

Put down your defninition and you can get to the core of the disagreement.

[jubaji]

Oh alright, lets pretend that I knwo nothing of those two topics.

Oh we don't have to pretend, I knwo you don't!

[jubaji]

how many times can you miss the point?

Put down your defninition and you can get to the core of the disagreement.

See post #64, moron.

[danfaggella]

Alright, just more smiley faces and knit-picking at meaningless spelling errors, what was I supposed to expect huh?

This thread is over with, you don't have an actual oppinion on the topic, just a bone to pick with someone who doesn't call wrestling a martial art. If this was a meaningless destinction you wouldn't be getting all mad and giving me the internet "finger" would you?

Ever feel like tell anyone what constituates a martial art? Ever feel like using content instead of lame, spiteful wit? Let me know, bud.

[Hardball]

Getting back on topic..............a pile drive is an illegal move in judo but not jujitsu. A roundhouse kick to the knee is illegal in both judo and JJ. Wait a minute, do judo guys even know how to kick? I once heard that you learn kicking skills at Black Belt level in Judo.

[Tant01]

Yes and no...

Getting back on topic..............a pile drive is an illegal move in judo but not jujitsu. A roundhouse kick to the knee is illegal in both judo and JJ. Wait a minute, do judo guys even know how to kick? I once heard that you learn kicking skills at Black Belt level in Judo.

Actually you can pick them up in Judo but not slam them down...

Atemi is relegated to kata in Judo and you should know at least one form to rank black belt in Judo. That doesn't mean you'll learn to kick or punch but you could depending on which forms you learn to do. Also in the old traditional "exercises" there are numerous atemi techniques...They are also mostly neglected until you need something else to learn (Blackbelts )

As you say, most don't pick up atemi until after they reach 1st dan... Sad but true. (But there are exceptions to the rule! )

[Hardball]

Are you talking about nerve attacks? And forms--you don't mean karate style forms? Judo and jujitsu kata teach kicks?

[BoarSpear]

Are you talking about nerve attacks? And forms--you don't mean karate style forms? Judo and jujitsu kata teach kicks?

i believe the japanese word for it is himatsu...or "hidden technique" yes the forms contained kicks, but they werent always shown often they were implied through the positioning of the toes or heel, however this knowledge was often withheld until higher Dan rankings....in other words, they pretty much dont exist anymore. kicks can and SHOULD be used to set up/disguise throws

[jubaji]

If this were a meaningless distinction you wouldn't be giving me the internet "finger" would you?

Evidently I would.

[Tant01]

Are you talking about nerve attacks? And forms--you don't mean karate style forms? Judo and jujitsu kata teach kicks?

Forms,(Kata means "form")...a system of prearranged movements that teach the fundamentals of attack and defense... The Itsutsu no Kata has 5 "forms". The Ju no Kata has two "sets" of techniques And, Kodokan Goshin Jutsu has a series of 21 techniques that are usually broken down into specific defenses against certain types of "attacks"...Often performed in "one step" drills... Together they are functionally much like a karate form performed with a cooperative partner...
Atemiwaza as in striking vital targets with various weapons of the body... from thrusting kicks to finger tip strikes and head butts!
Judo ROCKS Hardball!


There are two Kata in the Randori no Kata the first is Nage no Kata with 15 techniques and the other is called Katame no Kata which has three sets of techniques.
These two are usually the basic requirements for 1st dan... Not always.

The vital attack points used in Kime no Kata: (a 20 technique Kata or form) AKA Shinken Shobu no Kata or Combat Forms,

Uto (between the eyes)
Kasumi (the temple)
Sui-getsu (the solar plexus)
Tsurigane (groin)
Shitsu-kansetsu or Hiza-kansetsu (the knee-joint)
Kachikake (the chin)


Basic Judo techniques used in Kime no Kata:

O-soto-gari
Uki-goshi
Seoi-nage
Hara-gatame
Waki-gatame
Kata-gatame
Hadaka-jime
Kataha-jime
Okuri-eri-jime
Various atemi-waza

KIME-SHIKI (Forms of Decision) "exercises"
1. Purpose
This exercise aims to properly and strongly build your body by developing the fast and graceful movements of your muscles of the whole body. Further, it considerably assists to improve the skillful and decisive body movements which can be responded to any unexpected emergency without losing any time in accordance with the principle of attack and defense of the martial arts.

2. Outline of Kime-shiki
Kime-Shiki is composed of the five techniques applicable by assuming kneeling
posture with the bare hands or a dagger, and the other five techniques applicable by assuming standing posture with the bare hands or a dagger or a sword, which are as follows:

Idori (Techniques applicable by kneeling posture)

Ryote-dori (Both Wrists Seizure)
Furi-hanashi (Swing-off with right hand)
Gyakute-dori (Reverse Both Wrists Seizure)
Tsukkake (Stomach Punch)
Kiri-kake (Straight Cut-down at Head with a Dagger)

Tachiai (Techniques applicable by standing posture)

Tsuki-age (Uppercut)
Yoko-uchi (Blow at Left Temple)
Ushiro-dori (Shoulder Seizure from Behind)
Naname-tsuki (Oblique Thrust at Left Neck with a Dagger)
Kiri-oroshi (Straight Cut-down with a Sword)

3. Significance
This exercise differs from the ordinary gymnastics which are very useful to evenly develop your whole body, however, are mostly not practised with a keen interest in analyzing the substance of each body movement.
As stated in the above purpose of this exercise, you may acquire the martial arts through your practice of this exercise and accordingly you may improve your spiritual culture. At every time of practising this exercise, therefore, you have to calm your mind and concentrate your mind on every movement by making the most efficient use of your energy.

Koshiki No Kata (Forms Antique)

Omote (Front)
Tai (Ready Posture)
Yume-no-uchi (Dreaming)
Ryokuhi (Strength Dodging)
Mizu-guruma (Water Wheel)
Mizu-nagare (Water Flow)
Hikiotoshi (Draw Drop)
Ko-daore (Log Fall)
Uchikudaki (Smashing)
Tani-otoshi (Valley Drop)
Kuruma-daore (Wheel Throw)
Shikoro-dori (Grabbing the Neckplates)
Shikoro-gaeshi (Twisting the Neckplates)
Yudachi (Shower)
Taki-otoshi (Waterfall Drop)
Ura (back)
Mi-kudaki (Body Smashing)
Kuruma-gaeshi (Wheel Throw)
Mizu-iri (Water Plunge)
Ryusetsu (Willow Snow)
Sakaotoshi (Headlong Fall)
Yukiore (Snowbreak)
Iwa-nami (Wave on the Rocks)

Note my textbook like refrence with all the names spelled correctly
(I cheated)

Sources:
Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano


Judoinfosite...

[Hardball]

Nice post!!!!!!