Karate - The Weakest Link ?

[Guest]

I didn't understand him either. I think he is referring to Bunkai, where the movements that, for example, appear to be blocks may well be some kind of throw. But I am not sure.

Well, I think that learning throws in this way might just be an ineffective method of learning..........

[Karate_is_cool]

Well thats not like the average KARATE club, chris.
But If it were then that would be fine.

choke uk is making an accurate statement. there are way too many mcdojos in the world. they bring a bad name to karate. get this though: in japan one of the most popular forms of karate is kykokushin. i study kyokushin and can say that it is definetly a practical art since i have studied shotokan before too. you cant say that traditional karate sucks because kyokushin and shorin-ryu are traditional too and they are very good. if you can, find a video called "Fighting Black Kings". it shows a tournament with kyokushin and muay thai fighters. the muay thai fighters did very well defeating kyokushin fighters but in the end a kyokushin fighter won the day. dont generalize people!! do your research first!! just because you did one particular style of karate does not make you an expert on karate as a whole. there are a lot of styles, including a lot of hard styles like kyokushin.

[CKD]

in japan one of the most popular forms of karate is kykokushin. i study kyokushin and can say that it is definetly a practical art since i have studied shotokan before too. you cant say that traditional karate sucks because kyokushin and shorin-ryu are traditional too and they are very good. if you can, find a video called "Fighting Black Kings". it shows a tournament with kyokushin and muay thai fighters. the muay thai fighters did very well defeating kyokushin fighters but in the end a kyokushin fighter won the day. dont generalize people!! do your research first!! just because you did one particular style of karate does not make you an expert on karate as a whole. there are a lot of styles, including a lot of hard styles like kyokushin.

There are two types of Karate: Traditional and full contact styles. Kyoukushin falls under full contact along with its offshoots. An interesting note is that one of the reasons Kyoukushin is effective is that it borrows heavily from muay thai and boxing. Although I do not think traditional karate styles are effective I do feel that full contact styles are very effective. Full contact style like Kyoukushin, Seidokan and all the other offshoots have done well in k-1 and many mma fighters use them for there striking art. As for Fighting Black Kings maybe we show Sherwinc how well those kung fu fighters did and what happened when they tried there "lotus kick" on kyoukushin fighters. By watching that video you also see how different kyoukushin is from traditional karate(which kyoukushin walked through the whole tournament) and how much it is simialr to muay thai and boxing.

[brokenelbow]

Anyway. Karate has the potential to be deadly. Think about it. They could learn Shuto's to the neck - fingers to the eyes - elbows to the head - knees to the groin and kicks to the knee cap.

Instead they dance about throwing punches to thin air and have a pretend fight with no one in the silly mystical nonsense that is Kata.

I believe tha there are deadly Karate-ka out there. But they are hiding, probably to prevent their own version of the art being diluted in the attampt to make it appeal to the majority.

Agree 100%.

Karate has the potential to be very effective if practiced properly with modifications.

The best modification would be rolling back the modifications that broke it to begin with. Not many people who enter a karate school in the US want to go through the training to make things work.

There are two types of Karate: Traditional and full contact styles.

What is called traditional isn't really traditional. Karate wasn't very formal until after it went through Japan. Also most full-contact styles, which are closer to how karate was trained, don't go full contact all the time.

[duma20012001]

Not sure that this proves anything other than its effectivness against a kickboxer!! how does this relate to self defence?? Do kickboxers pull your hair, stick their fingers in your eyes, hold knives to your throat, attackpt to batter you with a peice of wood etc etc. No. To fight a kickboxer 'in the ring' as you like to put it is to partake in a sporting contest not a self defence situation.

I am not a Karate Ka but to say that martial artists MUST prove themselves against kickboxing and if they dont they are ineffective is just silly!!

Maybe some people are happy as they are and dont feel the need to prove things. If this is the case then so be it, Karate is not just about self defence - nore are martial arts, this is one aspect and for many people it is a by product of their training and not the focus. I myself do like to 'test' myself against other styles, it proves to be valuable in understanding my own fighting abilities. But if others do not want to do this then so be it.

Karate is good for alot of people in alot of ways. There are some Hard core Karate Ka out there, they are not tournement fighters, they are Karate Ka, there is a destinct difference. Im sure that these people are solid!!

Just some thoughts.

Cheers
chris

I think it proves a whole lot... Everybody is sick of bs in the year 2004. That why we have so many reality shows on tv now lol. If their self defense is so effective they shouldnt have a problem sparring against a kickboxer who trying to knock them out...That only real life..nothing silly with that....
giving a 15year old a blackbelt is silly.

I always hear of these supposive ancient secret karate guys who could smash everyone and anybody but u never see them ......right..........they had their chance.....to much honor i guess.......right.... maybe karate does teaches a person to be more confident in life but thats not the point of this topic.


kickboxer dont pull hair or try for the eyes but Im pretty sure they dont need too but they could.like i said before when it comes gunz and weapon etc your self defense is escape but where talking about a situation in where u going to fight and have a chance to use your art.....

[gracilva]

I think all these traditional styles would be greatly improved
if they would just, pad up lightly and do full contact sparring
on a regular basis instead of katas.

[Bushido]

Karate for real life self-defence????.

Some say that it's not what it was,
it's lost it's effectiveness since being imported?

some say it's the teachers etc

some say that it is all money oriented.

And many other things,
and no doubt there is an element of truth in all of these claims.

But I would like to add that the basic principles of KARATE are fundermentally-flawed, as a real life self-defence.

Think about it, has anybody actually seen Karate moves work?

I have seen many black belts of varying degrees, get into the "ring" with a kick/thai boxer and none of them ended up carrying on in vain with the ineffective karate moves.

It is my belief that virtually everything taught by your average karate instructor is actually detrimental to learning self-defence.

Even the basic moves of Karate are simply inferior and impractical.
The over emphasis on "one-blow" corresponded by "one impractical-block", the Fancy kicks, and the insistance on lots of
kicking. ETC,ETC. Then theres the KATA's !

These things and many, many more, are not just mistaught,it's my belief that they were probably wrong in the first place.

And the past glory and effectiveness of this art,
is merely the stuff of stories and exageration.

This can be argued, but what cannot be argued is the impracticality and ineffectiveness of karate, as self-defence.

But what i find disturbing is that many people,children included, find out the hard way, that karate simple doesnt work and is usually a money making process.
This gives the mis-guided students a "false-sence-of-security",
that can lead to a "shock-to-the-system".
As you find yourself , looking for a good dentist, as you say to yourself "how did that happen, perhaps my kee-eye wasnt loud enough" ?
The individual will normally blame himself for being inferior, when infact it's the karate thats inferior, but who'd dare tell that to the instructor !
A system that gives pretty coloured belts to students, that has no relation to how well they can defend themselves, cannot be in the real world.

Sorry all you Karateka's.
But if any one genuinely believes that karate, even satisfies, at even the basic PUNCHING AND KICKING level,
then go down to the local thai/kickboxing gym and get in the ring, and.....SEE WHAT HAPPENS ?

It may be an idea to book an appointment at the dentist first !

I agree but some styles of karate like Seidokaikan (K1) and Byakuren are very different from other styles, more realistic.

[cakegirl]

I think all these traditional styles would be greatly improved
if they would just, pad up lightly and do full contact sparring
on a regular basis instead of katas.

I do a "traditional" style - Shotokan. Twice a week, we pad up and do full contact sparring. We also have plenty of time for kata. Go figure!

Cakegirl

[gracilva]

I do a "traditional" style - Shotokan. Twice a week, we pad up and do full contact sparring. We also have plenty of time for kata. Go figure!

Cakegirl

Its great that you have time for katas, bingo, checkers etc.As long as there is full contact sparring.
The comment i made was for "traditional" arts with no contact or semi contact.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

OK so traditional are the styles that use thin air punching and kicking and Kata, am I right?
But Kyokushin, isn't just because they do full contact ( except for head punches) sparring
They have the same shitty old form, don't they? they use the same traditional clothes and grading, going up and down the gym punching thin air

Seems you guys make the distinction, if it is effective it isn't traditional
As well as if it is adapted, it is no longer karate
But in karate there is a principle called Su Ha Ri
Stick with the form, play with the form, break with the form, so karate is suppose to change over time but the basics stay the same
Why is BJJ which is older than some of the "traditional" karatestyles allowed to change without being nagged about still calling itself BJJ or GJJ or even JJ?
Why can Royce claim there is no standup but now focus on it? ( watch
PrideFC Shockwave 2003) while any karateka adding some grabbling is nagged that he shouldn't call it karate anymore (even though karate originaly has grabbling)

Thai boxing has been changed by the introduction of western boxing punches but does anyone change the name at all? No they don't
I think the saying:"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander" applies here

[Pornstar]

the all mighty dollar is your answer. Daniel Laruso and Mr.Miyagi put Karate in the heads of kids and parents as the number one way to become a perfect undefeatable fighter, all you have to do is "sweep the leg", thanks hollywood. i've been in dojo's with as many as 14 belts, the first promotion was $30 and every belt went up $10, at least, and BB was $200! the belts actually cost $4.95! the parents would buy out the BB club program and the kids would rush in almost every day to memorize dance/kata routines and test every two or three months, pay the belt fee and tada! i know, the instructor has to pay his instructor from out of town to come in and he has to print out a copy of a certificate, whatever. the karate schools i've seen and attended were just big daycares that parents would just drop their kids off and wouldn't come back until they got their grocery shopping done. maybe that's what they wanted to begin with, then karate was a great decision.
if karate wasn't about $$ why then so many freakin belts and 1/2 belts, camoflouge belts for crying out loud, do they have camo belts in japan? why do karate instructors give Black Belts to 8 year olds? because the parents want a kid with a smile and a BB and they will pay!
these are just random observations, in random order, true but random.

[darrianation]

These types of threads go on and on. I agree Karate has a lot of intrinsic flaws. I don't think Karate has lost anything I just don't think they ever had it right to begin with. It developed in a far different time and place. It problems started way back with the originators and their social customs, and then with the Japanese cultural codes about fighting fair and honesty and character crap. Karate is effective under these honorable cultural conditions at least inpart (a big part).

The problems are we no longer live in honorable societies we have criminals and wanted violence where there is no budo code or fighting fair. We try to use centuries old methodologies and philosophies and try to make them work in our modern chaotic society. It just doesn’t work!

Traditional MAs don’t change with the times or with scientifically proven methods of learning and training. Traditional based martial arts are not evidence based they are cultural. Therefore they are a good cultural experience but not so good in dealing violently explosive attacks where the budo code does not apply.

This is the reason the Samurai are no more, they refused to change with the new more effective ways of fighting and they died out Just as the notion that traditional based martial arts for self-defense is diying out! It took long enough to pull it out of the shadows and into the light to see what it really is, ineffective!

[robertlee]

karate today is different then the past. What was one time called karate jutsu is no called karate do. Jutsu was practiced to a higher degree of self defence. Do is preserves and cultivates. As time did change Guns took the place of the sword. The hand to hand or hand to sword defence reduced. But one cloud and people do train Karate to fight. Just as any moderen art does. You just have to make it meet your needs. Stances were set also for the ground type. low wide stance was used more for hilly and uneven ground. High stances for the more flat areas. To understand more of Karate you must go back to when it was not called that. But say Na Ha Te or Shuri Te. In the Okinawian area. Karte took its name when it was introduced to Japan. The Japanies people did not want the art to show relations to China. So said it would be called Kara Te. Japan had the Bushi arts Jujitsu Bo jutsu. Even ninjutsu. But Not what is now called Karate. Which did have roots to China. Not defending or debating if it works. Because only the person can make it work.

[brokenelbow]

Why is BJJ which is older than some of the "traditional" karatestyles allowed to change without being nagged about still calling itself BJJ or GJJ or even JJ?

Good point.

Traditional MAs don’t change with the times or with scientifically proven methods of learning and training. Traditional based martial arts are not evidence based they are cultural.

Can you prove that?

[darrianation]

Good point.



Can you prove that?

In sport education and exercise physiology there is this term called ‘sport specific’ drills or exercises. These are based on scientific principles of bio physics and kinesiology. Or in other words to get the best results the drills/exercises you perform need to mimic the same movements used in the actual sport or event

For example if you are a sprinter you would not do the same training as a marathon runner or a tennis player. As a sprinter you would want to perform drills and exercises that build strong leg muscles and develop explosive power. You would do drills and training that would develop good form and quick explosive starts and to run the fastest times.

If you are a distance runner it takes a whole different approach to training. You want to do things develop your endurance.

‘Sport specific’ can also apply to self-defense. If you train to fight, then train to fight, and drill properly with the right drills (specific drills). That means if you fight upright for better speed and movement then drill that way. If you use jabs then drill with jabs. Another scientific principle is that in a real street fight the opponent won’t play a game of tag and he won’t cooperate and there is no light contact so you need to train this way.

Get rid of the things that don’t work and use the things that do. Test a theory in the laboratory Prove it true or false.
.
Take a technique for a choke defense for example:
1) Does it work or fail against an uncooperative opponent?
2) Under what conditions does it work or fail?
3) Can it be applied simply under conditions of stress and fear?
4) Can it be applied by most people?
5) Can the same technique apply to a wide variety of situations and if so what are they?

Go to a boxing gym and you’ll find that these principles are being used. Go to a traditional MA school and you’ll find these really are not being used. Kata for example is not specific to SD, nor is marching up and down the dojo floor punching thin air.

Other things that is useless, or impractical
1) Kata
2) Punching/kicking thin air
3) Light contact
4) Sparring like it is a game of tag
5) Some blocks
6) Self-defense practice with cooperative partners
7) Atmosphere in the dojo

The list goes on and on.