Shotokan discussion from Belt Thread

[Szczepankiewicz]

I make no assumptions about what will or will not happen.

Cakegirl, then you are the exception and not the rule.

From my experience Shotokan is crap.

Combine with the deep stances the mighty kiai and the ever present shuffle stepping, the I hit him, he does this, then I hit him so and he does this setting up this move... and you still have 'is crap'.

Anyone (other than the Dutch Pinko) care to disagree!?!?

Spanky





P.S. (all in fun people...)

[Great Sage]

Shotokan Karate suffers the same way TKD does... At the average mcdojo level, it's crappy... The techniques aren't fundalmentally sound for combat either.

There are tough shotokan karate guys that train rigorously to harden their bodies and can deliver powerful strikes... I've seen it. However, for the most part, we're accustomed to deep, immobile stances with an over-emphasis on mystical techniques.

[freefaller21]

Originally posted by Great Sage
Shotokan Karate suffers the same way TKD does... At the average mcdojo level, it's crappy... The techniques aren't fundalmentally sound for combat either.

There are tough shotokan karate guys that train rigorously to harden their bodies and can deliver powerful strikes... I've seen it. However, for the most part, we're accustomed to deep, immobile stances with an over-emphasis on mystical techniques.

10-4

[coidman]

Spanky's out spankifying again, I see.

Great Sage sagely mentioned:

However, for the most part, we're accustomed to deep, immobile stances with an over-emphasis on mystical techniques.

The immobile stances, I can definitely confirm, but what do you mean by "mystical techniques"? Most of the techniques I learned in SKA shotokan were based on physical principles. Is this maybe a difference between the shotokan and shotokai schools? Do the former have more of a mystical bent than the latter?

[Szczepankiewicz]

SKA shotokan were based on physical principles.

Indeed, but poo poo is also based on physical principles?

Is there a point to your rambling son?

[Szczepankiewicz]

Ok, you're right. After re-reading it, it wasn't that funny.

Coidman, would you please be so kind as to elaborate on which physical principles you were referring?

[coidman]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz


Indeed, but poo poo is also based on physical principles?

Is there a point to your rambling son?

Sorry, Spank. We're talking about martial arts and shotokan. You seem to be fixated on something else. They have therapy for that sort of thing.

[Great Sage]

coidman,
maybe it was just my observation, but when I was training Shotokan, the instructor continually talked about "one hit knock-outs", internal energy and such... Although there was some emphasis on toughening oneself.

[coidman]

Originally posted by Great Sage
coidman,
maybe it was just my observation, but when I was training Shotokan, the instructor continually talked about "one hit knock-outs", internal energy and such... Although there was some emphasis on toughening oneself.

I'm sure it varies depending on the instructor and the school of shotokan. As cakegirl mentioned, some do emphasize striking "as if" you were trying to put someone down with one punch. My instructors tended to emphasize complete commitment to an attack. To them, that meant attacking and continuing to attack until the conflict was finished. We were routinely corrected if we didn't use combinations.

You're right about the challenge of moving in those deep bow stances. A lot of practitioners make the mistake of carrying those stances into jyu kumite. A lot of instructors don't spend enough time differentiating between sparring drills like ippon and sanbon kumite and proper free sparring technique.

Something that might also strike people as being more mystical is the idea in Shotokan (at least SKA Shotokan) of expressing spirit. As others have mentioned about Bruce Lee, this has more to do with emotional content--not anger, but intensity--than it does with spiritual practices. At least that is my meager understanding of it.

[JaredExtreme]

Spank is correct. Shotokan is inefficient.

[Guest]

I have a black belt in shotokan. I have also studied Jiu Jitsu since 1993. I have studied with Rickson, Joe Morriera, and several other top Jiu Jitsu teachers. I trust my Jiu Jitsu infinitely more than my karate. However...

Most people complete misunderstand shotokan. I especially laugh when I hear people criticize the stances. It tells me they don't have a clue. The deep stances and large blocks are only for training your body - hips and legs. The are the equivalent of a baseball player using a weighted bat. They are not fighting techniques.

They teach you to train AS IF you have only one technique. However, in real life, you won't get a one punch kill. This gives you power. You punch through your opponent and the kiai is a verbal aid which helps you focus everything at once.

Is shotokan the best? NOPE. No way. Is it criticized by people who do not have a clue? YEP.

There are 10 people teaching shotokan for every one who really understands it. I studied under Sensei Nishiyama. He studied under Nakayama who studied under Funakoshi.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Dave3006
I have also studied Jiu Jitsu since 1993. I have studied with Rickson, Joe Morriera, and several other top Jiu Jitsu teachers. I trust my Jiu Jitsu infinitely more than my karate.

Is all this jiu jitsu information pertenant to the thread, or are you simply going for credibility?...

Originally posted by Dave3006
Most people complete misunderstand shotokan. I especially laugh when I hear people criticize the stances. It tells me they don't have a clue. The deep stances and large blocks are only for training your body - hips and legs. The are the equivalent of a baseball player using a weighted bat. They are not fighting techniques.

If what you say is true... You shouldn’t be laughing, you should be concerned about shotokan. Afterall, if most people criticize it because they don’t understand it, then something is wrong with the way shotokan is taught... It’s not the people criticizing it, it’s the art. Already, several people criticized the deep stances... It’s a clear indication that shotokan fails to teach correctly.

Originally posted by Dave3006
They teach you to train AS IF you have only one technique. However, in real life, you won't get a one punch kill. This gives you power. You punch through your opponent and the kiai is a verbal aid which helps you focus everything at once.

Personally, I think kias are a nuisance... Shotokan punches don’t fare any better.

Originally posted by Dave3006
Is shotokan the best? NOPE. No way. Is it criticized by people who do not have a clue? YEP.

Yep, people have no clue about shotokan... That’s why it sucks.

Originally posted by Dave3006
There are 10 people teaching shotokan for every one who really understands it. I studied under Sensei Nishiyama. He studied under Nakayama who studied under Funakoshi.

You seem to be the only one here who understands shotokan, yet you say jiu jitsu is better. So much for shotokan’s credibility...

[Szczepankiewicz]

Is it criticized by people who do not have a clue?

You're darned tootin'! My name is at the top of that list. No one ever said you had to understand to be critical!

Most people complete[ly] [sic] misunderstand shotokan.

And that is because (like so many other arts, including BJJ) anyone of a certain level can go off and start teaching it. Poor quality control.

Spank is correct. Shotokan is inefficient.

I have to go with my man Jared here. Not only because he agrees with me, but because it is inefficient.

So we get back down to the 'not the art, but the artist' argument. In this case it's 'not the art, but the art instructor'

Here and now I lay down the challange against any Shotokan Student!!!!!

[Benjamin Dover]

LOL...The deep stances are for training your body?!?!?! Yeah....ok. Let's spend 2 hours in a "deep stance" when thirty minutes of weights will do more. I hate all this one technique crap and deep stances are used "to train your body". What a joke.

The way you spar should be extremely similar to the way you train and vice versa.

[Szczepankiewicz]

thirty minutes of weights will do more.

Do more what?


The difference is between isometric and isotonic training. One concentrates on skeletal muscle improvement, the other concentrates on tendan/ligament improvement.

Not to mention that, from what I hear about the Shoto ST sessions it's a real Jedi Mind ****. Folks that make it through that stuff have some grit to 'em.

A little grit goes a long way.

The way you spar should be extremely similar to the way you train and vice versa.

I thought sparring was training, and vice versa!?


You guys keep it up and Ryan will accuse me of Shoto bashing and ban me! That's NOT what this thread is for. Well, not entirely!

Spanky