flaw of self defense training

[akja]

Originally posted by doubleouch
akja,
You miss the whole point. What I was saying is that there is an aspect of self defense training that can't be safely trained. Training more won't do it.

My comment wasn't emphasizing "training more," it was emphasizing "how" we train.

Its a given that we can't go all out in every aspect of "no rules" but if we use our heads and make up for the shortcomings that get passed off for "self defense," then good things will happen.

With your example I would say that there is anaspect of "all" arts that can't be safely trained.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Reality-based Self Defense training should be trained at full speed, with full contact, in all ranges, and with 100% resisting opponents. NOT just in actual physical ranges, but the pre-fight aspects of things, etc. Proper scenario training is crucial, and the only way "scenario" training prepares people for reality is if it is done in realistic ways. The same types of things as I mentioned in my other post. It's CRUCIAL for self-defense training (i.e. sucker punch scenarios, multiple opponents, hidden knife pulls, etc.) to be no consent and with full out force. It's also crucial that the actual physical tactics have the proper delivery systems of effective striking, kicking, clinching, and grappling.

If the point of the thread is that you cannot gouge your training partners eyes out in reality for moral reasons, than it's spot on.

However, if the thread is saying you can't know for sure if you could gouge eyes against a resistant opponent.....well that's a fallacy because you can train and grapple full out with a resisting opponent and tear into his "protected" eyes all you want. If he can't stop you even though he's resisting 100% ..... there's a good chance you can do it in real life.

It's in how you train.

The notion that one cannot be properly prepared for reality through "simulated" scenarios, etc. is wrong.

If it were right, the police, military, firefighters, emergency staff, etc. would never be prepared for real events.

Make sure the logic here doesn't fall into "If you don't do it for real, you can never know if it will work..."

Do police actually kill people in training to make sure their particular gun skills can kill someone?

Does the military actually kill each other during their "war games" training to make sure their tactics would actually work in real life?

Do firefighters set real people's buildings on fire to make sure they can successfully react to "real" trauma and chaos?

If trained properly, one can be BETTER prepared for reality (perhaps not 100% prepared) but better prepared than someone who does not train in that way.

Ryu

[doubleouch]

Good post Ryu,
If you look at what I wrote you will see that I don't have a problem with saying the techniques will work. They will. I have a problem saying we know, because of our simulation training, how we will react in a situation that we have never been in before. I can reasonably know how I will react in a grappling tourney because I have been in some. I have experienced the actual event that I trained for. In self defense we can approximate and simulate, some better than others, but we cannot participate in the actual event. Therefore, it becomes impossible to tell how we will react. Yes, good training helps, yes, we should simulate, yes, simulation works, but we can't know how we will react in a situation we have not encountered.

[jukado1]

Folks all were doing is target hardening, or increasing our odds. outside of really being attacked we will never be sure what our reaction might be. by the same token do you know how it feels to be in a MAJOR car crash ? no, but even though we don't know for sure what the results will be we still put on our seat belts we may not KNOW the results but we still better train to the best of our ability's.

[jubaji]

Originally posted by jukado1
Folks all were doing is target hardening, or increasing our odds. outside of really being attacked we will never be sure what our reaction might be. by the same token do you know how it feels to be in a MAJOR car crash ? no, but

No? Why no? Lots of people have been in serious auto accidents.

[Cain]

I made a total wreck of my car after doing a summersault across the fence at the side of the road.. does that count?:P

[jukado1]

In answer: cain, yes sir. jubaji, and some of us have tested ourselves in street altercations.

[Nit]

You could follow like in Pink Panther and hire someone to jump out on you at random moments : "Cato! You imbecile! Not now!"

[doubleouch]

I think Nit is on to something!!! I remember a couple of years ago seeing a news story about a self defense school that would set up a random attack of every student upon the completion of it's self defense course. Sometime during the week after the course they would send someone out to attack you. It might be on your way to work, It may be as you leave your house in the morning etc. This was supposed to test your training and give you an authentic experience. They showed some footage of the attacks. They weren't always physical attacks. Sometimes they were just verbal. Sometimes they were just grabs etc. It was very enlightening.
Again, to reiterate my point, I don't disparrage self defense training. I think it is essential and very worth the time. I just think that it is unique in the realm of athletic training in that we don't participate in the event that we train for. This creates some inherent problems that we must address and it makes us more vigilent in keeping it real.

[Nit]

No one here has watched the pink panther films? shame on you all...


Postman: "Delivery"
Cleuseu: "What is it?"
Postman: "A Beumbe"
Cleuseu (to the room): "Are you expecting a beumbe?"

[Drew Howe]

Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)


If the point of the thread is that you cannot gouge your training partners eyes out in reality for moral reasons, than it's spot on.

However, if the thread is saying you can't know for sure if you could gouge eyes against a resistant opponent.....well that's a fallacy because you can train and grapple full out with a resisting opponent and tear into his "protected" eyes all you want. If he can't stop you even though he's resisting 100% ..... there's a good chance you can do it in real life.

Very correct indeed. You will undoubtedly do in real life what you do in training. A perfect example of this is found in a case study from several years ago. Two police officers were engaged in a shoot out with a suspect. The officers were both unfortunately killed in the battle. Sadly, this did not need to happen. They training was partly responsible for their deaths.

Investigators researching the case found a seemingly innocent, yet deadly, flaw in this departments firearms training. You see the range master was very particular about keeping the range free of empty shells. This department used . 357 revolvers as their duty weapon. The requirement on the range was that after every round had been fired, the officer had to eject the spent casings in to his hand (not on the ground) and then put the casings in his pocket or a nearby can prior to reloading.

The two officers held true to their years of firearms training. One had a pocket full of shells and his speed loader holder on his belt was unsnapped. The other had a hand full of empty casings. The findings of the investigators showed that while the department told officers to simply eject spent rounds while retrieving a speed loader from their belt to reload, actual training took over.

Personally, I have a similar yet no where near as tragic story. Years ago I was in Army infantry basic training at Ft. Benning, Ga. After our four weeks of basic rifle marksmanship, we went to the range to officially qualify with our weapon. We were told that if we had a weapon jam during qualification to simply raise our hand and we would be aloud to clear the jam and start over again.

Well, my luck. I had a weapon jam. Instead of rasing my hand as instructed though, I instinctively cleared the jam...as several targets came and went, and continued through the qualification course. I qualified but my score was low as a result of the jam.

It was somewhat disturbing to my Drill Sergeant as well, as I had been shooting well through out training. He asked me what the problem was. I told him about the jam. He of course got a little angry with me and wanted to know why I didn't raise my hand. I told him that I was under stress and forgot about his instructions regarding qualifying. Under the stress of qualifying I did what I was trained to do, which was clear the jam and continue shooting. He had no argument for that. I did what I had been trained to do, not what I had been told to do.

[darrianation]

Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)
Do police actually kill people in training to make sure their particular gun skills can kill someone?

Does the military actually kill each other during their "war games" training to make sure their tactics would actually work in real life?

Do firefighters set real people's buildings on fire to make sure they can successfully react to "real" trauma and chaos?

If trained properly, one can be BETTER prepared for reality (perhaps not 100% prepared) but better prepared than someone who does not train in that way.

Ryu

Yes this is what reality-base training is all about.

I liken the guys that train strictly self-defense to the special forces of the martial arts world. The rest of us are just the grunts.

Let me give you an example:

Realism. Let me start this by talking about the real combat folks that train for the real stuff. Combat professionals in the special operations arena are trained to experience a very high level realism in their training. In fact that training they receive is so close to being real that when actual combat is experienced the effects of stress, fear, and anxiety are hardly felt. The training I’m talking about is like this: the military will go out of the way to make their trainees miserable. They love to train at 2 o’clock in the morning after an already full day of work. In the rain, in the in the most muddy conditions they can find they would run them, swim them until they were physically and mentally exhausted then the real training begins.

It’s always dark, cold, and wet. They will have explosions going off kicking up sand and dust into the eyes making it even harder to see. Automatic gunfire coming from all directions while they shout instructions designed to confuse, unnerve and disorient. This type of training using live fire is very stressful. They will throw in as much noise and chaos as they possibly can. The unpredictable exercises and mission plans were always designed to fall apart forcing improvisation and changes in tactics. This type of training environment pushes the trainees to their limits. This type of training is the closest thing that the instructors could do to get their operators prepared for the physical and psychological rigors of combat, but it made every thing second nature to them while under an incredible amount of adversity.

When the real thing came along, these highly trained operators find themselves on the battlefield with real bullets buzzing inches from their heads they are able to go about their business in a calm matter of fact way attending to the tasks as if it were just another day at the office. They don't experience the panic or fear that their less trained counterparts do (the grunts). Their heads were clear and their skills sharp.

This is extreme I know but a life or death confrontation on the streets is pretty extreme. It takes a form of extreme training to be really effective at being able to defend yourself under extreme circumstances.

I can only hope that if you are training strictly for self-defense that you are training as hard and as real under an incredible amount of stress as possible without getting yourselves or your partners killed. Just like the Spec-op guys use rules for their safety when they train, so should you.

Hopefully you will be able to handle a street confrontation like it was an other day in the dojo.

[Kirves]

I've come to believe that one of the big flaws of self defense training is that you never get to engage in the activity you train for.

The police, bouncers, security guards, etc. quite often get to "engage in the activity they train for".

[CKD]

I think people in self defense training should do what the straight blast gym does and spar. Also they seem to draw on sport arts because thats what work against resisting opponents. www.straightblastgym.com Click on news and go to questions and answers with matt thorton and you will see there genius philosophy.

[Drew Howe]

I think sparring is good provided that surprise scenarios and an offensive mindset are drilled. Not naming names, but I've seen one POPULAR group out that has several tapes on the market. Of the material that I've seen of this group it shows the fighters sqauring off in every "self-defense scenario."

This isn't fighting...it's crap. If I thought things were going bad, I would never just square off with the other guy. You are at a disadvantage when you do this and it takes away the element of surprise. Some circumstances don't give you the advantage, but training for the advantage is a major part of good scenario training.

One such scenario involves backing down, if possible, when someone gets in your face. Remember, you are both ready. You don't want the other guy ready...you are giving too much away if the other guy is ready for your attack.