jkd down fall

[Drew Howe]

This isn't really related but were you certified to teach by Gary Dill or just Carter Hargrave?

I have a truly genuine interest.

I was a senior ranked student in Gary's JKD Assoc. and an Intern Instructor, which is basically the same thing as an apprentice instructor. I've been issued rank from a few different groups, even one group who's chief was trained and certified by Larry Hartsell. My highest level was master instructor rank in an off shoot system of JKD simply called Close Quarter Combatives under my friend and instructor RJ Oak. RJ was once a concepts guy and later became a Senior Level instructor under Gary Dill. Carter Hargrave matched the master rank that was issued to me by RJ. Though I never trained with Carter Hargrave's organization. He and RJ were regional directors under Gary at one time.

Anyway, that is my paper trail. In addition, over the years I've trained with many different guys on both sides of the JKD coin.

[Drew Howe]

where does a guy like jessie glover fall in all of this?

If that is a statement and not a question, you made my point. Jesse Glover is a perfect example of someone who doesn't need anyone's approval. In fact, it is insulting to Jesse for anyone to suggest or think that. Yet, were is Jesse's certification? I'll tell you where it is. It's the dried blood and sweat on the floor that he shed during his training with Bruce.

But, if we follow the logic of some, Jesse shouldn't be teaching JKD, Jun Fan, or anything Bruce showed him either...because he wasn't certified by Bruce as an instructor.

Anyone else see how ludicrous that would be?

[akja]

I was a senior ranked student in Gary's JKD Assoc. and an Intern Instructor, which is basically the same thing as an apprentice instructor. I've been issued rank from a few different groups, even one group who's chief was trained and certified by Larry Hartsell. My highest level was master instructor rank in an off shoot system of JKD simply called Close Quarter Combatives under my friend and instructor RJ Oak. RJ was once a concepts guy and later became a Senior Level instructor under Gary Dill. Carter Hargrave matched the master rank that was issued to me by RJ. Though I never trained with Carter Hargrave's organization. He and RJ were regional directors under Gary at one time.

Anyway, that is my paper trail. In addition, over the years I've trained with many different guys on both sides of the JKD coin.

Very,good. I haven’t heard of RJ but I’m sure he’s been around. I noticed you were kind of “protective” of Dill, just curious where you stood. I was trained by Felix Macias but down the road I was certified by Carter Hargrave.

I’m saying that there was a good or bad “business decision” on Carters part but I am saying that I’m not going to abandon him over a “business decision.” He is an excellent martial artist. That hasn’t changed. And what’s this CRAP with making that “topic” a “sticky” forum. What a joke! And an even bigger joke is that there is so many people with no connection what-so-ever to any 1st generation JKD-student and they’re going to judge who is right and who is wrong.

The joke is on them! Every time they open they’re big mouths they’re digging a bigger hole for JKD. The whole mess started with Bruce himself. He was never certified to teach anyone, not a single soul. So that makes ALL of us under him “bastard instructors” so to speak. If lineage matters, then that’s what we are.

But if we are looking for the truth in JKD, then I am saying that the Macias Branch by far is the TRUEST on the whole JKD tree.

http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

And these other “big names” starting crap because “they are right” and the others are the bad guys, GUESS WHAT, you’re missing the whole point yourself! JKD is what it is and “WE ALL” are contributing to the mess, some more that others.

But all these people who come into the JKD-forums with no REAL connection to JKD and talking caca. What’s up with that?? Its supposed to be a JKD FORUM, there’s a MMA forum for that crap.

If they don’t like what I say, I don’t care.

[Drew Howe]

AJKA,

I was one of two Master Instructors in Hargrave's organization. I left him because he didn't have the common decency to respond to my e-mails to him regarding what was going on with his instructors page, which was an uncredited copy of Big Sean's work. I was highly insulted by Hargrave for not responding to me. I asked questions of him, I did not accuse him. At first when I wrote him, I said that I thought that this was a mistake and someone just supplied him with Big Sean's list and took credit for it. However, it became clear to me that Hargrave didn't even want to discuss the issue. What I received back from him were e-mails signed off as "members division" or whatever. Carter didn't put his name to anything he sent back to me. I decided that he didn't need me as a member....or he decided that for me.

So, if that's how he treats me, one of his master instructors, he obviously doesn't have much respect for you either. If I were you, I'd rely more on your lineage which is very solid, and less on Hargrave's organization. Carter's organization won't help add to your credibility among anyone who knows how he operates. He maybe a good instructor, but his character is severely lacking.

[sercuerdas]

hey drew,
it was meant as a statement. i knew glover had no cert. , but when he went to europe none of the wc people could touch him.

[Drew Howe]

hey drew,
it was meant as a statement. i knew glover had no cert. , but when he went to europe none of the wc people could touch him.

I think that is pretty special. I would have liked to been there to see that.

[Thai Bri]

Not that I'm really concerned with all this... but Dill being made 5th Dan by a guy who designed an art based on JKD? That sounds pretty useless and pathetic to me. We can all design our own arts (not that they'll necessarily be any good) and give 5th Dans out. It doesn't mean a thing.

Thai Bri - 97th Dan Black Belt, Thai Bri Do.

[breathless]

oh boy the dill do debate rages on!

guys look in the back of one of dills old training manuals.{i have one!} dill did train with dan at several seminars!gary and dan parted over one matter and one matter only money! both of them charge outlandish fees for an art that at best is marginal for self defense! simply stated when i tried to use jkd techniques both original and extra hippy, i got popped a couple of times and i retreated to boxing wrestling judo and some muay thai! this debate is getting old. yet i feel compelled to interject the voice of 3 years bouncing experience.{and 5 years jkd xprnc} guys they are takin' ya' for a ride! both camps! try some trapping against a marginally trained ymca boxer and you had better have dental insurance!
on a different note my buddy roger's wife wants to take kuk sool won how effective do you think it is for self defense? any takers on commenting on this one. i don't want to tell rogg it sucks or doesn't work until i have more info on it and the websites don't give much info on the techniques! any help is appreciated hugs and kisses breathless!!

[IPON]

But, if we follow the logic of some, Jesse shouldn't be teaching JKD, Jun Fan, or anything Bruce showed him either...because he wasn't certified by Bruce as an instructor.

Anyone else see how ludicrous that would be?

Drew - now you are confusing topics. Jesse Glover was teaching while Bruce was alive was he not? How can you compare Jesse Glover and gary Dill in terms of JKD that is the point. I am not attacking Dill, but you have to look at this realistically. Inosanto and Glover were teaching, Dill trained about 6-8 moths during '71-'72 and was clearly told not to teach. Big difference. But the issue is not completely about certifications. It is about ethics, honor and respect.

I agreed that inosanto was wrong to teach, but I don't agree that it was equal. Of the 2 inosanto certainly had more of a right to start teaching after Lee's death.

The passion you or anyone has for their respective style(s) or instructor(s) is respectable. However, you can't let that passion blind you to certain truths. The main point I have been making about certifications is that people are typically certificed in a very short time, with or without prior experience, and are made instructors by video or seminar. Now JKD is not the only style that does it, but no other style is impacted as much as JKD. I may be stepping on toes, but I think people need a dose of reality. I have stated I too am a JKD instructor - (yes by video and seminars as I am sure your were), but I am not going to teach it nor will I discuss the organization I was certified under, maily becuase I am not interested in politics and I claim no affiliation. My point is that I am not making empty statements agree or disagree that's fine.

I think if you put ego and bias aside you will see that JKD, however you define it is in a poor state. I would have to say that I wish everyone had honored Lee's request and discontinued teaching the overwhelming majpority of what is out there is truely crap and that is based on the technique, the trainning/conditioning part is another thread.

This is not directed at you or anyone specific, I think you would have to look in the mirror to decide if it applies to you.

[IPON]

And an even bigger joke is that there is so many people with no connection what-so-ever to any 1st generation JKD-student and they’re going to judge who is right and who is wrong.

The joke is on them! Every time they open they’re big mouths they’re digging a bigger hole for JKD. The whole mess started with Bruce himself. He was never certified to teach anyone, not a single soul. So that makes ALL of us under him “bastard instructors” so to speak. If lineage matters, then that’s what we are.

And these other “big names” starting crap because “they are right” and the others are the bad guys, GUESS WHAT, you’re missing the whole point yourself! JKD is what it is and “WE ALL” are contributing to the mess, some more that others.

But all these people who come into the JKD-forums with no REAL connection to JKD and talking caca. What’s up with that?? Its supposed to be a JKD FORUM, there’s a MMA forum for that crap.

If they don’t like what I say, I don’t care.

Look I can at least understand Drew's arguments whether I agree/disagree with his points.

So you are saying that I have no connection to JKD or any 1st generation students and you know this how I was certified as an instructor, I won't teach nor will discuss the group from which I recieved certification. Now you can attack me becasue I won't give the information or you can argue the validity of my points. Hmm I wounder which one you will choose.

Even if I had no connection with JKD are you saying that I am not alowed to discuss topics and voice an opinion. Come on Growup!! The forums are open to everyone, I have not flamed anyone but you certainly attack me becuase you don't want to hear certain truths.

Dude - Please JUST SAY NO - this is your brain on drugs Lee founded JKD why would he need to be certified. If you are a bastard instructor you can't blame Lee for that. Now if you were teaching Wing Chun that may be different.

I think you should re-read your own signature. I do not contribute to the mess because I refuse to teach. If you recongnise the "mess" then you should be working to change it or stop it. My points are about the current level of teaching I am not interested in the politics and I would like to assume that you are not as well. I clarified some points that Drew made regarding Dill and Drew for the most part agreed, So explain how I am talking caca?

The reason I said "Cheat Con Do" because that is what it is turning into, do you agree? Learning by video to teach your self some teachniques for your use is one thing. But to go from zero experience and then teaching students in 6-12 months is a completly different story. I mean they way it is done it is almost like JKD multi-level marketing. But if you find no problem with this process and think that Lee would feel that this mass commercialization of his non-commercial style of no-style. Then fine we can certainly agree to disagree.

[Drew Howe]

Don't you think it is about time we moved past 1973?

Drew - now you are confusing topics. Jesse Glover was teaching while Bruce was alive was he not? How can you compare Jesse Glover and gary Dill in terms of JKD that is the point. I am not attacking Dill, but you have to look at this realistically Inosanto and Glover were teaching, Dill trained about 6-8 moths during '71-'72 and was clearly told not to teach. Big difference. The issue is not completely about certifications. It is about ethics, honor and respect.

I guess this is where we disagree. James Lee "clearly" told Dill not to advertise himself as a JKD instructor, but he "clearly" gave him permission to put a small exclusive group together and train them in what he knew. In short, those are the facts. Repeating that James told him not to teach still makes it false.

Beyond that, look at it from Gary's prospective. Shortly after Gary was told he could put a small group together, his instructor dies. Then a few months later Bruce Lee dies. Gary continues to train with other JKD people and also has his small group that he trains. Then, in the mid 80's he is appointed to the board of the JKD society along with Dan Inosanto, Taky Kimura, and many of the first generation students (that are also teaching). If Gary wasn't a qualified instructor, why the heck was he appointed to board of the JKD society? Why was just an unqualified student given a board seat?

In Gary's mind, and my own, that was certification by his seniors and his peers. The JKD society disbanded I guess a year or so later. That was due to the fact that not everyone agreed on some of the issues. Politics and money.

As for the ethics, honor, and respect...well you can apply each of those issues equally to Dan Inosanto in the same context that you would apply them to Dill. But that would be equally wrong. See, what a lot of people on either side of this issue have a problem with is TIME. We are not frozen in time. Time ticks on and we move through it...all of us at the same time, and we change and hopefully grow. The only way Gary or Dan have disrespected their teachers would be if TIME stood still and we were frozen in it.

If we were all still stuck in 1973 portions of everyone's argument would be more valid. Dill with the JKD Association, would be going against James Lee's wishes. Dan with the big concepts crowd would be going against Bruce Lee's wishes. College freshman would ALWAYS be college freshman. But, since we are obviously moving through time, many college freshman will learn and grow and eventually graduate. Just as Gary and Dan have learned and grown and moved past 1973. No wait I get it, Just Gary should have stayed in 1973 and not continued to grow and progress in JKD. Is that what you are saying? Come on man!

Don't you think it is about time that we all moved past 1973? Heck, I'd only be 4 years old right now...I couldn't even spell Jeet Kune Do much less learn it.

[IPON]

I guess this is where we disagree. James Lee "clearly" told Dill not to advertise himself as a JKD instructor, but he "clearly" gave him permission to put a small exclusive group together and train them in what he knew. In short, those are the facts. Repeating that James told him not to teach still makes it false.

Drew re-read the quotes I posted. James Lee is saying "work out" with friends, basically so Dill can maintain some level of skill that is not the same as formally teaching. But again, I will tell you that I know many people that have dealt with Dill and I have been to one of his seminars and it is partial information regarding that letter and his claims are not just JKD but the Original JKD as it was taught to him for 6-8months. Regarding the JKD society there was a lot behind the scenes that is honestly not worth discussing. I did agree that some of this applied to Inosanto as well.

What are you talking about growth and progress? Dill claims to only teach what he was taught by James Lee from'71-'72, he made the choice to be stuck in time. IMHO most if not all JKD is stuck in time. Most are classisically teaching the non classsical style progress stoped with Lee (for the most part). Regarding the Dill teaching, again it is a point (more of a clarification)but that is not the main point. The main point was about JKD in 2003 and the quality of the instructors.

I think we have different views of honor and respect regarding the continaution of a style, but again we can agree to disagree.

Again, we do not need to agree on this topic and we can agree to disagree. I understand that Dill is/was your instructor which is why I do not want to discuss him out of respect.

[Drew Howe]

Drew re-read the quotes I posted. James Lee is saying "work out" with friends, basically so Dill can maintain some level of skill that is not the same as formally teaching. ...

What are you talking about growth and progress? Dill claims to only teach what he was taught by James Lee from'71-'72, he made the choice to be stuck in time.

I look at what James told Gary in total. James Lee also said "remember keep classes small and exclusive." You see what James wrote as telling Gary not to teach. I see it as James telling Gary not to call himself a JKD instructor, but it is okay to hold a class and work out. Again, this is semantics. James clearly wanted to demonstrate that he could not make Gary and instructor and for Gary not to call himself one, yet he felt it was okay for Gary to hold small and exclusive classes. That is what James wrote.

Gary claims to teach the original JKD as it was developed by Bruce Lee. I can't find anywhere that Gary claims to only teach what he learned from James Lee.

You have a problem with JKD as it is today. Fine, but whether you realize it or not, you are being a little dishonest in the way you analyze the situation with Gary Dill. However, that is not unlike many of whom that have been critical of him over this. Half-truths are not the whole truth and that's basically the point I've attempted to make.

[IPON]

Caveat Emptor

You have a problem with JKD as it is today. Fine, but whether you realize it or not, you are being a little dishonest in the way you analyze the situation with Gary Dill.

Drew-if I were trying to be dishonest and unfair I would not have typed the quotes (obvoiuslly not the whole letter) and I stated you can interpret how you want - no flame. OK next time I will be more bias.


Please can we just end this!! You made a point regarding Inosanto and Dill in teaching and going against their respective instructor. You Bought up the point of the letter. I will maintain that it is too simplistic for you to say that it was OK for Dill to start teaching if Inosanto did, they were simply at two different levels in terms of JKD: Inosanto a long relationship with Bruce and Dill a short relationship with James. So for example, do you think I, after studying less than a year in kempo, tkd, jujitsu etc I find that my instructor died and I am now qualified or authorized to teach because shihan now has opened a school. The answer is no. That is all I am saying, is Dill the only one hell no!! There are alot of people, but the topic was Dill.....there was no attack. It is not that serious a point!! He is teaching now, good luck to him!! I didn't say that he should pack up and stop what he is doing. Is what he teaches consistent with what he learned from James, probably.

With all this said I agree that there are certainly far worse people that you can learn from. Whether what he teaches is considered good, bad or somewhere in the middle, I can at least say that he is consistent.

"Gary claims to teach the original JKD as it was developed by Bruce Lee. I can't find anywhere that Gary claims to only teach what he learned from James Lee."

That is mostly correct. He refers to what he teaches as what he learned at the oakland school from "71 to '72, he never studied under Bruce just James. Infact that is the only person he refers to as a teacher and you can look on his web site for that info. But I don't know why you are making this an issue I didn't. I mean I could argue the marketing aspects of the wording but I didn't it not important.

The title of the post is "JKD Downfall" and that is what I am addressing. Again not attacking Dill, both he and Inosanto contribute. The state of JKD is poor and I would think you would agree if you are being honest, whether it applies to you or not. The point should be to make changes to preserve what you consider an MA. Certifications are part of that, but if people were serious about controlling the product, they would stop the distance learning (at least for instructor purposes). Again, this would be true for any style but it impact JKD the most and is what is causing the downfall. JKD is continues based on the legend of Lee not on the current merit of its legacy. When selecting any style people have to study the styles that are available to them. If they do not have judo within 100 miles of their home and don't or can't move - guess what they do not study judo, the same is true for JKD.

I am and always will be a big Lee fan, but that does not make him God or his assertions correct. There were alot of people around Lee (as is the case with may great people) that directly and indirectly helped with his achievements, that does lessen his contribution, that is just reality. Lee pulled all of it together that was his greatest talent even beyond his physical gifts.

Again, we dio not have to agree, but at least I think we should understand each others points, I am hoping I clarified my point. If not, again we can shake hands and agree to disagree.

[akja]

Look I can at least understand Drew's arguments whether I agree/disagree with his points.

So you are saying that I have no connection to JKD or any 1st generation students and you know this how I was certified as an instructor, I won't teach nor will discuss the group from which I recieved certification. Now you can attack me becasue I won't give the information or you can argue the validity of my points. Hmm I wounder which one you will choose.

Even if I had no connection with JKD are you saying that I am not alowed to discuss topics and voice an opinion. Come on Growup!! The forums are open to everyone, I have not flamed anyone but you certainly attack me becuase you don't want to hear certain truths.

Dude - Please JUST SAY NO - this is your brain on drugs Lee founded JKD why would he need to be certified. If you are a bastard instructor you can't blame Lee for that. Now if you were teaching Wing Chun that may be different.

I think you should re-read your own signature. I do not contribute to the mess because I refuse to teach. If you recongnise the "mess" then you should be working to change it or stop it. My points are about the current level of teaching I am not interested in the politics and I would like to assume that you are not as well. I clarified some points that Drew made regarding Dill and Drew for the most part agreed, So explain how I am talking caca?

The reason I said "Cheat Con Do" because that is what it is turning into, do you agree? Learning by video to teach your self some teachniques for your use is one thing. But to go from zero experience and then teaching students in 6-12 months is a completly different story. I mean they way it is done it is almost like JKD multi-level marketing. But if you find no problem with this process and think that Lee would feel that this mass commercialization of his non-commercial style of no-style. Then fine we can certainly agree to disagree.

IPON,
My post refers to the JKD forum as whole and not just this thread and I wasn't aiming anything at you, if I was, I would of named you. I was making a statement based on the BS that I see in here from those with no "real connection" to JKD.

I don't know who with or anything about you. My point is this is a JKD forum and its rarely constructive. A lot of the posts are made by "outsiders" and are based on movies and books rather than solid information passed down from "credible" instructors.