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**Underdog** · 11-30-2000, 05:13 PM

The so called JKD of today is NOTHING of what Bruce Lee would have meant. Now we have different individuals; albeit legitimate and very efficient as instructors, that teach a STRUCTURED set of moves borrowed from variious fighting systems.

The problem I see is that the vast majority of what is taught today is not reality-oriented. Maybe in the intentions, but not in real situation. Think for a moment: the purpose of a good MA would be to teach EFFICIENTLY what to do in a fight, that would mean that you cannot spend a huge amount of time doing hubad or lock flow drills only to discover that in a real fight you can apply only a small portion of what you did train.

The more I see JKD here in italy, the more those guys are leading away from reality. They don't spar for fear to injury themselves with finger jabs and knee kicks; they are, as M:Torthon says "not alive".

I wonder if Lee would have lived...I suspect that his JKD would be VERY near wath we call "crosstraining mixed martial arts"...

**Chad W. Getz** · 11-30-2000, 06:46 PM

Great post U-D.

I think some great examples of JKD as it was meant by Bruce Lee would be Burt Richardson, Matt Thornton, and Paul Vunak. I think Paul Vunak is picture perfect JKD. He uses punchs, kicks, effective trapping, clinching, takedowns, and groundfighting. And he spars it. Same for Burt. Same for Matt. I'm sure there are others out there, though far less, I suppose, than those that claim it.

I suppose it depends what you think JKD is. Some heard Bruce when he said no way as way. Maybe others thought he said my way as way.

**Bau13** · 11-30-2000, 07:28 PM

I totally agree with you guys...

If Bruce were alive today..he would have probably progressed into something like Vunaks system...

I just started this post cos I've spoken to lots of guys who claim to teach JKD...And it really bugs me when I ask them if they know any BJJ,submissions etc...and they go all defensive saying stuff like...

"Oh! We dont really focus on that stuff.. more on the striking and wing chun! Anyways,Bruce's JKD books covered all of the grappling techniques you need! Those books actually cover most of the Gracie's techniques..."

YEAH RIGHT....

I guess some guys like to dwell in the past...quite sad really...and totally opposite of what Bruce would've wanted his JKD to progress into..

**Underdog** · 11-30-2000, 11:00 PM

The real problem with many JKD schools is that what is taught is not tested, but drilled; I explain better: when I was allowed in Ruas Vale Tudo school, at the same academy there was a JKD instructor program, held by the same instructor that taught us RVT: great stuff; trapping, low-line kicking, finger jabs, the whole nine yds, you know. The problem for me lied in the fact that those guys rarely sparred. They would do much of their stuff with protections, but what was missing was the inner toughening that would come from full contact sparring with minimum pads. I pondered carefully, but ultimately I chose RVT for the simple fact that we do almost exclusively sparring and grappling and FROM THEN we do adjust our techniques to suit our bodytipe and mental make up. Also, there is one thing that is priceless. We do GET HIT and a lot. In this manner we are very conscious of the dangers in combat, but at the same time we are not scared by them, just because we have experienced them. That show at a subliminal level. It's hard to put in writing but the vale tudo class it's more INTENSE, determined, hard. It show in the composure of partecipants, in their stare. It's something that is missing in other classes. It's the same when I go to my boxing gym; here there is a tense atmosphere; a competitive one, you get tested everyday, you can't relax. Ypu know you'll get hurt, it's the price to pay, in return your learning curve would accelerate at lightspeed.

It was the same when B.Lee started his early classes, there were bruises and blood, guys get tested. The JKD is born because Bruce Lee realized early that in a real fight he would be crushed if he had utilized his classical knowings, so he obsessively searched for SHORTCUTS in combat. And the only manner to know what you need is trying to do.

**Chad W. Getz** · 11-30-2000, 11:58 PM

I agree-the best way to learn about not getting headbutt, is to experience one on the ground, or to not get hit, is to get hit. Not the only way-but the best and the fastest. Your mind will quickly explain to your body and reflexes why exactly you should perfect your "technique". And your body will listen.

**Bau13** · 12-01-2000, 06:17 AM

Yup...getting hit the first time....changes everything..
Makes you stronger though...BUT

I hate getting punched in the nose!

So annoying!!

**pfsjkd** · 12-01-2000, 03:17 PM

Well, I think it was natural that as JKD's popularity grew and more schools sprang up there would be a 'watering down'. Look at how popular the McDojo is. This illustrates (at least in America) that most people will not pay to go to a martial arts class and get hurt.

As JKD expanded I think instructors found that they had to appeal to a wider range of students in order to just stay in business. It's not as bad as the McDojo situation, but there is definitely a lowering of standards. As far as I'm concerned, there is still only a handful of JKD instructors that I would trust (don't forget Roy Harris! one of the most underrated JKD guys around).

We don't spar FULL contact, we do a lot of light to moderate sparring in all ranges, but the fact is we spar. Just recently forum member GIJOE said he was studying with a JKD instructor WHO DIDN'T SPAR!! What the hell. . .? That is DEFINITELY not in line with what Bruce taught.

**Tony10** · 12-01-2000, 07:17 PM

Right on Underdog! You are right on the money.

Although I have to say I haven't run into too many "bogus" JKD instructors, maybe I've been fortunate: Vunak, Dion Riccardo, and yes: Roy Harris rocks! All of them very reality-oriented, which is all I ever wanted in the first place: reality. I could care less about kata. It's pretty, but so is a BMW convertible--you won't see me driving that around a battlefield.

As for whether hubud and lock flow drills have any application, I don't have enought MA experience to judge that, nor do I have the skill at either. I would imagine there must be some or people like Paul or Dion wouldn't bother with them.

To sum it all up: "realistic" systems = sparring is mandatory. Right?

**Gladiator** · 12-01-2000, 07:50 PM

JKD is not a special concept.

If you seriously think about it, the concepts behind JKD are not startingly special. Don't get me wrong, I don't wish to undermine what Bruce Lee did for the martial arts community. He did a great and necessary thing by expounding his beliefs about the martial arts.

The idea behind JKD, Bruce Lee's motivation if you will, was to re-functionalize something that had become stagnant over generations of formalization, standardization and ritualization. The process of JKD was to reverse the generations of de-volution of the martial arts, and instill them once again with the "martial" aspect. Bruce Lee didn't bring anything new to the martial arts scene, he was just the wake up call to remind us that we were trapped in our ignorance about the arts. Essentially, Bruce Lee put the 'balls' back into martial arts, which at the time had digressed to become nothing more than organized oriental dances.

Bruce's interpretation of JKD, 'The way of the intercepting fist' completely embodies the process of re-functionalization. "To hit the other guy before he hits you" this is the core of his interpretation, requiring an awesome mastery of your own body. His focus was not on the acquisition of cool-looking techniques, but rather, FIRST the development of the most efficient physical and mental state possible, and then SECOND the tools to back up your agenda.

Almost all of his original Jun Fan techniques were linear. No shit, it is the quickest path between two bodies. However, Bruce Lee could pull it off, because he actually trained to hit people that moved out of the way and hit back. His personal attributes, and his emphasis on attribute training are what elevated him above his contemporaries at the time.

It is a known fact that Bruce Lee later on regretted coining the term JKD, because it was slowly becoming exactly what he tried to move away from: an organized system with a core body of techniques. People wanted to fight like Bruce by imitating his technique/system.

The sad thing is that most people fail to realize that JKD is merely a fancy description of what Bruce Lee could do. With his techniques (Jun Fan- his name) and his attributes, he could do JKD (or 'hit you before you hit me'). In the same way if some random unschooled street fighter could train to the point where he will always take you down before you can touch him, or hit you before you hit him, he will be expressing JKD.

Ultimately, my point is that no one particular thing is JKD. The term JKD in fact should not need to exist so long as we keep in the spirit of functionalizing our techniques and keeping ourselves in shape. Boxers are practicing it all the time, as are fencers. Vitor Belfort has clearly functionalized the Wing Chun straight-blast (though I am sure he just thinks of it as 'alot of punches in a row'), and his early UFC fights are clearly an expression of JKD.

A JKD teacher CANNOT be a JKD teacher is he isn't training you to use your own body in the best possible way. Those that keep sparring out of the picture are offenders, however, I am sure that there are other offenders in other areas who neglect the importance of some aspect of physical conditioning.

BJJ training or not, if you are not learning how to optimize your physical performance, you are not really doing JKD. While cross training is useful, JKD is NOT cross-training. Furthermore, while sparring is useful, JKD is NOT defined by sparring.

It is not hard to see how an individual untrained in fighting, but who is exceptionally strong and fast (perhaps through another sport) might rip through a slew of so-called JKD guys. I in fact I had the pleasure of training with a guy who, with 1 hour of training had completely nullified everything I knew technically with his superior attributes. I pride myself in my speed, but this guy was just much faster and much stronger. I am proud to say that I have learned from this, and now I have a goal towards which I can train.

***As a side note: If you really want to see how BJJ might
be completely thrown out of the window, I would highly
recommend getting Paul Vunak's Street Safe 3.

My recommendation for the practice of JKD is to find the fastest, strongest, toughest guy you can find. Train with him until you begin to see things happen. Then, find someone even faster, stronger, and tougher. So on and so forth.

To quote Paul Vunak: "The firstest with the mostest is the bestest."

**Harley** · 12-02-2000, 06:12 AM

some interesting points

This is my first post, so i hope i'm not taken too seriously here, just thought i'd mention my thoughts.
first, yes sparring is essential. but there are several levels and methods of sparring. a school that jumps students straight into full contact lacks in progression, thus making the learning curve to sharp, making most people drop out or get knocked out, so a wider range of sparring methods must be employed. sparring, as i learned it, is a test to see how well your drills are working, lets face it, drills make skills, not sparring. sparring just let's you see if the drills are really ingraining the responses you want.
second, of course lockflows work, of course hubud works, but both only work when the same stimulus is given in the same range. for example, hubud focuses on dealing with lines of attack, generally on the high line, and how to deflect or destroy the attack and then follow up with the most effective counter. but if you are in a range where the same stimulus isn't given, well, no hubud. but hubud works, here's why, we are neuro-muscularly speaking, no different than any other animal in the world. meaning we are all "hard wired" the same. so if you can teach an animal a simple stimulus/response drill, like fetch or roll-over you can be taught to trap or lock or choke. all based on stimulus and response. As Guro Dan says, "it's all in the numbers" what he means is that you must do a motion and experience that stimulus thousands of times to make it a "muscle memory". once that is achieved you are there. what hubud does is give you that stimulus thousands of times in a relatively short time.
Lockflows-all i have to say is every grappler worth his salt flows from one lock to another, this is learned in lockflows. it teaches that when this fails he will have to bend this way or that, if he goes this way i do this and vice versa.
anyway, just thought i'd drop a line and get to know some people here. look forward to reading more.
harley

**Chad W. Getz** · 12-02-2000, 06:36 AM

Re: some interesting points

Originally posted by Harley
for example, hubud focuses on dealing with lines of attack, generally on the high line, and how to deflect or destroy the attack and then follow up with the most effective counter.

Hey Harley, some good points. Not really related to the thread overall, but it's about why I think hubud is such a good drill and how I think people can get more out of it. I tend to work with hubud out of a principles concept. Stop inside ride under and monitor for attack. On the bottom, you mirror the images On any angle the principles can be used. Being that hubud was one of my favorite drills, the muscle memory is there for me and it does help me by being instinctive to certain types of attacks.

**Bau13** · 12-02-2000, 06:41 AM

nice post Gladiator...checkin your e-mail lately??

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