Using JKD in a fight

[BeingAtOne]

That was well stated Mike BrewerI believe you make a very valid point.

[bodhisattva]

"My point is simply that studying a martial art that's not reality based doesn't hurt a soul."

No argument here.

"Fighting is natural in life, as is learning to avoid fights. I think we all ought to stop making it more than it really is. And if you're out there selling a program based on making people super-duper streetfighting, MMA killers, I apologize for screwing with your marketing plan, but if you're that worried about life and death fights and random ninja muggers, buy a gun!"

Still, no argument from me.

"In fact, I think every single person that claims to train in realistic self-defense or martial arts should invest some serious time checking out what the other half does."

Nearly all of them started out doing what the other half-does. And they are thrilled to spend their time training something that works, and works well, against well trained resisting opponents. And they want to bear witness to that fact. And so they say to the guys who are doing what they were doing themselves, 10 years ago.."Hey guy's, it's over here! This stuff actually works! Try this!"

"However, studying these other arts (which admittedly use more contrived movements and forced postures) helped me learn MY art better, because after forcing myself to learn those things that weren't natural, I was developing the ability to feel what was. That's a long winded way of saying this:"

Maybe. But you would still be better off if you had been working with better fighting technology/training methods from day one. And that is what most of the mma and nhb, and bjj guys are all trying to say: if you want technology that works REALLY well, and gets to the TRUTH in battle quickly, it's over here.

I don't think the reality based crowd is telling Tae Kwon Do guys not to do Tae Kwon Do. No one cares. We are, however, very willing to inform one of them that when their teacher said "High Kicks are the best way to defend youself, the legs are so powerful! That is why over 70% of attacks in Tae Kwon Do are high kicks," that their teacher was presenting them with a very faulty path of logic.

"But do you suppose that forcing yourself out of your own belief system and experiencing - really getting down and experiencing - what some of these "unrealistic" and "worthless" arts have to offer might teach you a little something about understanding people?"

Again, most of us started out in those other arts. And that is why we so often try to explain to people that if they would like to learn to fight, then they should move away from dead patterns.

This never has to be taken as an insult. But people can often be very bitter and unhappy that you suggest that THEIR martial art isn't going to help them beat away 1 attacker, much less 4. This is ok. Catholics don't want to hear that maybe some of the things in their belief system are separated from truth, either. This is how people addicted to belief systems generally respond to any such suggestion that lies outside of their belief system.

No one suggests to them that their movements aren't beautiful. No one suggests to them that if they like what they are doing that they should stop. It is simply suggested that traditional martial art teaches one more about getting his ass beaten than it does about self defense.

There is no reason for people to get offended by that. If someone suggests to me that boxing isn't going to serve me as a way of trianing my striking, I'm really OK with it. I'll consider their thoughts and move on. Why be insulted or upset?

"Some of us run around like life and death streetfights are around every corner. We feel that unless we've trained harder than everyone we know, we'll die in a pool of blood and swill at the hands of some unnamed mugger."

Man, this is a fabulous point, and you make it so well. So many think and talk like their are bullies with baseball bats with 8 inch nails sticking out of them, ready to fall on you until you cry out "uncle"..totally. What a weird, twisted mindset, where does that come from, TV?

However, I also have to say that my workplace (a standard office), is full of challenges and b.s. (like most corporate environments) And I have to say the guys that won't stand up for themselves get walked on pretty badly. And the guys that will stand up and say "Hey Louie, watchoo doing with my papers in my cube? No, get out of there buddy, that's why this place is so disorganized, and you aren't doing it in my cubicle as well.".. those guys get along ok. Not too aggressive, not scrappy, but not afraid to call people on their shit..

And that DOES come from combat athletics.. it can come from elsewhere - any place in life where one can test himself daily on a performance basis. But combat athletics gives it to men better than any other medium, in my opinion. It knocks down the over-aggressive, insecure side of a man..and it secures and strengthens the quiet side, so that aggression is measured out according to the situation at hand - measured carefully.

Instead of blindly doled out on everything from the fear-based mind.

But I totally agree with you about the common martial arts rhetoric and the reality based fighting rhetoric. Everyone seems to be talking from fear.

I tend to dwell on the applicability (or non applicability) of a particular training method merely because I figure that if a guy is drawn to "martial art", then he is looking to learn to defend himself, and he wants the chance to grow better at it over time.

I come to that conclusion because the term is "martial art". Martial = of war or combat and Art = A system of methods employed in the succesful performance of an end or need: the art of building.

If a martial art doesn't help someone defend oneself, it seems to not be a martial art?

Most of the reality based fighting guys are not telling people not to do kung fu. They are merely telling them that their teachers have misinformed them by saying that the training methods are quality fighting technology. When they are just dead patterns. I believe that if a guy in a traditional martial art showed up to class, and their teacher said "This won't help you fight much, maybe some..but really not much. It's more of a semi-athletic dance system".. that the guy would say "Really?!" and quit showing up eventually.

That' mostly what the reality guys are trying to say. And that's mostly why. I think?

[bbbb]

?

So, Boddhi, is Kung Fu a waist of precious resources or not?

[bodhisattva]

I'm not saying anything is a waste of resources. I'm not saying anything like that, although, my over opinionated, blunt nature probably makes it seem like I am.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing kung fu or tae kwon do or Shorin Ryu or any of the other traditional arts.

But I do take exception to the claims some teachers make. I do take exception to the fact that (in my opinion) a lot of the people in those classes are allowing themselves to be misled.

I think the less-effective, more traditional arts are often beautiful. That is why I was drawn to them as a boy. But I wasn't only after beauty, if I was, I probably would have taken Tap or Jazz dance or something. I was also after a tool.

And I think that's what draws a lot of people to the traditional arts. They want something thats a tool, and they choose the one that looks beautiful.
Who isn't awed when Jet-Li does some ridiculously complex jump spinning kick? I know I am. I'm envious too.

But I don't think that kick is the answer if Jet-Li is being attacked.

And I agree with Brewer, I agree a lot. When attacks come, a good double leg probably isn't going to help - the attacker will wait until your pants are down and no one is around. If a human attacker wants you, he'll hide in your basement closet and wait for you to sleep. Etc. etc. I can't agree with Brewer enough. And if the attacker has already done a term in prison - well - you're screwed. He's been to get his doctorate in crime, and he knows what he's doing now. Etc. It's all true, in my mind.

But the same is true of handguns. He suggests I just buy a handgun. Well, that's still not an answer. Because the truth of handguns is that they have to be OUT and LOADED and CHAMBERED to be of any use. Then you still have to worry about HITTING the man, and worry about the hit bringing him down. Etc. Nothing is fail safe.

But, when I train, I still want to train with the best technology available = training methods. Just because an attack will come while being ambushed, while asleep, while half-disabled..that is no reason to train something inneffective. In fact, that is ALL THE MORE REASON to train something that is more efficient and more effective.

but that's just me. Like I said, I'm not telling anyone not to do kung fu or aikido. But I do (frequently) suggest to people that they look to combat athletics over "combat martial arts - we're too deadly to spar". Look for a teacher that enjoys fighting, has a friendly attitude, doesn't demand tons of "respect", and has a succesful group of fighters.

[bodhisattva]

"Legitimate, I'll grant you. But they're no different than the litany of excuses people spout about how BJJ isn't effective for mass attack, or why boxing is too limited. They're just that: excuses. Training and understanding overcome them."

I hate hearing that stuff too. Those kind of excuses miss the point.

Can you imagine this happenning in other scenarios?

I design a badass jet, say, like a Harrier.. Vertical take off and landing..can hover in battle..loads of armament.

And someone looks at it and says "Yeah, but it can still be destroyed by FIVE HARRIERS!"

No kidding?

For those guys that offer those excuses: BJJ may not make someone WIN the fight with multiple opponents. But, then again, knowing BJJ isn't going to hurt, either.. because, it's not just about going to the ground, but its also about knowing how to NOT go to the ground..knowing how to keep upright.

[bodhisattva]

"Legitimate, I'll grant you. But they're no different than the litany of excuses people spout about how BJJ isn't effective for mass attack, or why boxing is too limited. They're just that: excuses. Training and understanding overcome them."

I hate hearing that stuff too. Those kind of excuses miss the point.

Can you imagine this happenning in other scenarios?

I design a badass jet, say, like a Harrier.. Vertical take off and landing..can hover in battle..loads of armament.

And someone looks at it and says "Yeah, but it can still be destroyed by FIVE HARRIERS!"

No kidding?

For those guys that offer those excuses: BJJ may not make someone WIN the fight with multiple opponents. But, then again, nothing is..and knowing BJJ isn't going to hurt, either.. because, it's not just about going to the ground, but its also about knowing how to NOT go to the ground..knowing how to keep upright...and if you do get knocked down, it's also about knowing how to get back up quickly..etc.

[HERQ454]

In all due respect to those that have posted on this thread,What happens if you live in a country where the law is arranged to make it very hard for law abiding citizens to purchase guns for "self protection".Reality martial arts have a place.Do they have all the answers.No.But they might give us a chance in a worst case scenario.Are the odds of random violence small or large?Small for the majority but its like car insurance,you dont know if an accident is going to happen,but be in the best situation before it does.