using academic degrees

[bodhisattva]

How to tell if a teacher/coach is any good:

The best sign that a coach is any good is that he will roll with anyone who walks in the gym.

This isn't a "stupid kung fu movie challenge to a duel" type thing..

It's just that so many teachers won't fight.. they are too "good", too "egoless"..etc. etc.

However, if you have a teacher that has his students fighting every night, and fights with them, and fights the people who come into the class..etc. well, that's a very good sign.

And when I say "fight" I don't mean tae kwon do type "point sparring".

Look for a guy that actually DOES his art..fights with it. Look for a guy that has people under him also fighting.

If they do it, and they do it well, it doesn't matter if he has a title or not. Unless you are looking to get a title. If you are looking to fight, go with the teacher that fights and has students that fight.

[Hardball]

How to tell if a teacher/coach is any good:

The best sign that a coach is any good is that he will roll with anyone who walks in the gym.

This isn't a "stupid kung fu movie challenge to a duel" type thing..

It's just that so many teachers won't fight.. they are too "good", too "egoless"..etc. etc.

However, if you have a teacher that has his students fighting every night, and fights with them, and fights the people who come into the class..etc. well, that's a very good sign.

And when I say "fight" I don't mean tae kwon do type "point sparring".

Look for a guy that actually DOES his art..fights with it. Look for a guy that has people under him also fighting.

If they do it, and they do it well, it doesn't matter if he has a title or not. Unless you are looking to get a title. If you are looking to fight, go with the teacher that fights and has students that fight.

I agree. Kia'

[Aikia]

Ranoufofsn,
The Nov 2004 issue of TKD Times has an article on bogus Ph.D. degrees. Seems like use of the title "doctor" is very attractive to some who want to increase their prestiege. On a plane trip this summer I noticed that the in-flight magazine carried several ads encouraging readers to pay for ("phony") degrees. One such "diploma mill" was recently shut down in California (www.Google.com/key in Columbia Pacific University). Several high profile martial artists have "graduated" from this bogus joint. The only reason to stay in school for 8-9 years and invest $50-$100K to earn a doctorate is to enter the college/ teaching profession or research. I can't think of a reason for a martial artist to need a doctorate. Unfortunately some feel that they can take the easy way and just buy the title/degree. The phony Ph.D.'s go for $500-$2000. You may get a better deal on the internet. It won't be long before someone will figure a way to sell an authenic certificate in JKD and signed by Bruce Lee on e-Bay ( and for a few dollars more your very own Ph.D.). There will always be someone wanting to take the easy way.

[chalambok]

This is total BS

What if your teacher is Wally Jay? He's well into his 80s
What if your teacher is the father of Royce Gracie? He's well into his 80s
What if your teacher is Dan Inosanto? He's well into his 60s
What if your teacher is Angelo Dundee, trainer of over 14 World Champion boxers who never boxed a day in his life? He's well into his 80s
Need I go on?

[HtTKar]

Anyone that would use phony degrees is a liar and a coward. What reason would they have to decieve people, or build up thier past. A person only lives for so long...If they are an accomplished teacher what else do they need?

But there could be some degrees that might be worth mentioning. For example if an instructor had a degree in child psychology, you might think about him twice if looking for a place for your child to attend. Others could be sports medicine, or physical therapist, etc.

Then there are degrees and certificates that like CPR certainly deserve mention.

No need to make up lies, but if a person has degrees or certificates there should be no reason that they are not mentioned. It might even show that they are a little more enthusiastic, or committed to their profession than is their competition.

[Hardball]

Does a person with a degree in Management; make a better manager? Can he/she manage a dojo better? Can he/she manage a class of martial artist? This thread is old BUT IT HAS TAKEN an interesting turn and now is deserving of further discussion. What about these tkd instructors who flaunt their business administration degrees? Does it give them more credibility? I'd like to hear from the defend.net community.

Bowing Out

[kcfile]

Anyone that would use phony degrees is a liar and a coward. What reason would they have to decieve people, or build up thier past. A person only lives for so long...If they are an accomplished teacher what else do they need?

But there could be some degrees that might be worth mentioning. For example if an instructor had a degree in child psychology, you might think about him twice if looking for a place for your child to attend. Others could be sports medicine, or physical therapist, etc.

Then there are degrees and certificates that like CPR certainly deserve mention.

No need to make up lies, but if a person has degrees or certificates there should be no reason that they are not mentioned. It might even show that they are a little more enthusiastic, or committed to their profession than is their competition.

I'm a new member of this forum. However, I do agree your view. Someone who wish to devote more to their career will prefer to earning, not buying a degree.

I've seen this web page, http://www.icledu.org/WCU/ADtoMD.html, that is delivering a martial arts master degree in Wing Chun major. It only allows me and other Wing Chun's sifus to exempt the modules of Wing Chun's practical skills. I need to study all other modules via distance learning mode e.g. law, management ... etc if I cannot demonstrate competency in such these modules.

Experienced Wing Chun's sifus may apply directly to the PhD level but are required to write a thesis/paper/project in a length around 50,000 words in topics of Wing Chun's concepts/philosophy or topics related to modules in Master level.

The course quality and requirements seem to be fine. I will check it out further.

[Aikia]

Diploma mills

FYI,
My friend walked into a computer store, having never used a computer before, and was ready to beleive anything the salesman told him. He ended up buying parts and service contracts that did not match. I imagine the same thing could happen if a martial artist decided to search the net for potential MS/Ph.D. programs. If you are ready to beleive anything the sales person tells you you are apt to get taken for a ride.
What if you went to a site that said "Earn your UFC title by correspondence"? Or better still "Establish your linage to Bruce Lee by Mail". Don't you think you would question the validity of the proposal? Of course you would see right through the scheme.
I am in the business of college degrees as I teach at a University. There is NO legitimate college or university in the US that offers a degree in Martial Arts. Martial arts wil fit in the department of Sport/Physical Education etc. At Radford University we offer the degree in Exercise, Sport and Health Education with a martial arts cognate in Sport Studies. The martial arts profession is being taken in by these phony mail order diploma mills that advertise easy to earn/buy PH.D.'s via mail/on line.
Here's some sound advice for anyone who beleives that there is an easy way to earn a college degree via mail/on line. Go to a printer or graphic designer. Have them design your very own diploma using the name of any of the phony mail order diploma mills like Columbia Pacific University or heck make up your own university name. The mail order universities can't stop you because they are after all...phony diploma mills. You can then fool your friends with the mail order degree and it cost you only a few dollars compared to the thousand or more to buy it through the mail or the tens of thousands it would cost to attend an actual university and earn a degree by going to class, taking notes, preparing for exams etc.
And remember there are by now several dozen, if not more, high profile martial arts masters that are now using these phony titles of Ph.D. that they bought from phony colleges. One of these days the list will be published and you'll know who is real and who bought the diploma. Save your money.

[kcfile]

FYI,
My friend walked into a computer store, having never used a computer before, and was ready to beleive anything the salesman told him. He ended up buying parts and service contracts that did not match. I imagine the same thing could happen if a martial artist decided to search the net for potential MS/Ph.D. programs. If you are ready to beleive anything the sales person tells you you are apt to get taken for a ride.
What if you went to a site that said "Earn your UFC title by correspondence"? Or better still "Establish your linage to Bruce Lee by Mail". Don't you think you would question the validity of the proposal? Of course you would see right through the scheme.
I am in the business of college degrees as I teach at a University. There is NO legitimate college or university in the US that offers a degree in Martial Arts. Martial arts wil fit in the department of Sport/Physical Education etc. At Radford University we offer the degree in Exercise, Sport and Health Education with a martial arts cognate in Sport Studies. The martial arts profession is being taken in by these phony mail order diploma mills that advertise easy to earn/buy PH.D.'s via mail/on line.
Here's some sound advice for anyone who beleives that there is an easy way to earn a college degree via mail/on line. Go to a printer or graphic designer. Have them design your very own diploma using the name of any of the phony mail order diploma mills like Columbia Pacific University or heck make up your own university name. The mail order universities can't stop you because they are after all...phony diploma mills. You can then fool your friends with the mail order degree and it cost you only a few dollars compared to the thousand or more to buy it through the mail or the tens of thousands it would cost to attend an actual university and earn a degree by going to class, taking notes, preparing for exams etc.
And remember there are by now several dozen, if not more, high profile martial arts masters that are now using these phony titles of Ph.D. that they bought from phony colleges. One of these days the list will be published and you'll know who is real and who bought the diploma. Save your money.

I have checked with the university. It requires me to do a research in accordance with its course requirements, i.e. around 50,000 - 60,000 words length, to fit for publication purpose if I apply for PhD and can prove I am a qualified master in martial arts. All my records and past history MUST be certified at gov't offices in my country with supporting personal referee letters from my sifus/sihing for verification.

For its master degree course, all students must be recommended by their sifus of qualified Wing Chun's schools to certify their practical skills in Wing Chun being competent as similar as its module syllabus in order to get exemptions. However, a student still needs to study other subjects through online basis, like law, management ... etc., if he/she didn't study them before.

The course including admission and content seems rigid enough. I need to send out my certified records for their further consideration! I don't mind the reputation of the university but DO consider whether the course requirements are solid and rigid enough for me to learn something.

[bodhisattva]

I have checked with the university. It requires me to do a research in accordance with its course requirements, i.e. around 50,000 - 60,000 words length, to fit for publication purpose if I apply for PhD and can prove I am a qualified master in martial arts. All my records and past history MUST be certified at gov't offices in my country with supporting personal referee letters from my sifus/sihing for verification.

How much can you make with this degree? Even if money is "not important" to you, you should realize that college degrees are best used as multipliers of your income. The reason is because they CHARGE so much that a person is in debt for years after attending. If you won't be making enough to pay off the debt, then I'd not bother with a university fighting degree.

The thing is, if a degree won't increase your earnings (in fighting, it won't) then you can usually obtain BETTER training elsewhere. Schools are very fragged up. A 60,000 word writ on Wing Chun is just the kind of ridiculousness I'm talking about.

Just my opinion. Spend the money the school wants on three schools of fighting of great repute, go to them, and do much better in the long run.

[Aikia]

KcFile,
I visited the West Coast site. Anytime I see "distance education" along with martial arts anything, I think of the old kung fu advertisements of the 1970's that claimed that the master was too deadly to teach in person so you paid money to learn from the safety of your home. This wing chun "Ph.D." is of no value.
It takes four years to earn a bachleor's degree. You must eqarn the BA/BS before being admitted to a reputable MA/MS degree program ( which typicaly takes 1-2 yrs.) The doctorate requires an earned masters and an additional 2-3 years classwork, research and dissertation. If a web site offers to "sell" you a doctorate and tells you to bypass the time in college classrooms for distance learning or life experience ( in this method they simply give you credit for your life experience) then stay away.
Ask Rorion Gracie if he would value a BJJ certificate from WCU? Or, ask William Cheung if he would honor your Ph.D. in wing chun. Call Black Belt magazine. See what they think. If you are convinced that WCU is the way for you then report back to us in a few years...or a few months when you receive your diploma. Let us know how much you have improved and we may all go for our Ph.D. in wing chun. Same message...save your money. Good luck.

[kcfile]

KcFile,
I visited the West Coast site. Anytime I see "distance education" along with martial arts anything, I think of the old kung fu advertisements of the 1970's that claimed that the master was too deadly to teach in person so you paid money to learn from the safety of your home. This wing chun "Ph.D." is of no value.
It takes four years to earn a bachleor's degree. You must eqarn the BA/BS before being admitted to a reputable MA/MS degree program ( which typicaly takes 1-2 yrs.) The doctorate requires an earned masters and an additional 2-3 years classwork, research and dissertation. If a web site offers to "sell" you a doctorate and tells you to bypass the time in college classrooms for distance learning or life experience ( in this method they simply give you credit for your life experience) then stay away.
Ask Rorion Gracie if he would value a BJJ certificate from WCU? Or, ask William Cheung if he would honor your Ph.D. in wing chun. Call Black Belt magazine. See what they think. If you are convinced that WCU is the way for you then report back to us in a few years...or a few months when you receive your diploma. Let us know how much you have improved and we may all go for our Ph.D. in wing chun. Same message...save your money. Good luck.

Thank you Aikia. I contacted the institute to know more about the course details.

I asked further about the details of the martial arts degree from the institute and received such reply: "The mission of degree in martial arts is to focus on training martial artists to be knowledgable, not training for a combat champion. It will be totally wrong concept for a degree in martial arts to train fighting dummies. That is why the course program included such other subjects as law, psychology ...etc." The institute explained further to me why Bruce Lee was agreed in general as the great martial artist, but not Jacky Chan ... etc. It was because Bruce Lee was well educated in university level to develop his thinking and philosophy independently. Most of good fighters, but not real knowledgable martial artists, did not receive academic degrees without coursework provided, but only honorary by life experience.

If a student can complete the degree course, I do think he/she really manage himself/herself well to know the importance of unnecessary fights and its trouble outcomes derived. Also, as I know, many selling degrees are required people to pay a lump sum but the WCU research degree by installments based on my research work submitted on different stages. Furthermore, each candidate may entitle a scholarship of HK$20,000 for his/her outstanding research work submitted as explained from the professor. This policy seems to encourage students to try good effort to do their research work.

Thus, I am applying the PhD degree by research. There will be the first assignment about 5000 words length via hard copy submission with certified statutory declaration for work done by myself as a part of the literature review in my research degree program. The topic is to criticise "a double higher law standard being required for measuring the behaviour of a martial artist in a dispute of fighting offense case". I need to find out legal/court cases to discuss both for and against the views. The rationale behind such research, as explained by the professor, was to demonstrate my competent knowledge in legal concept/consequence of a professional martial artist. So can anyone here help me where I can find out such legal cases in both USA and UK legal systems for comparison? I'll do my own library research.

[bodhisattva]

Honest to god, KcFile, you should avoid that degree.. it truly isn't going to help you..

But, it seems like your mind is set, so GOOD LUCK. I hope it all works out for you.

[frankenbeans]

ah KCFILE PLEASE FOLLOW THIS ADVICE

KCFILE, Please do not do this degree thing for martal arts. Look, there are better Ph.D. distance learning degrees out there from ACCREDITTED schools. Here is one called the Union Institute where you can actually design your own Ph.D. Think about it; you decide the content of your degree, you pick the faculty members for your doctoral committees, and it is likely that you can pick outside faculty members with expertise in martial arts if you like. It takes an average of 3 years; it's more academic and it's recognized just as much as any other legitimate institution. You can basically do the program as it suits you. You can do karate in school and specialize in an area, but the non-accreditted school may give you some issues with employers down the line. If the school is non-accreditted, good luck trying to convince someone your worth just as much as so-and-so who got a degree at an accreditted school. Think of the degree that's worth it to go in debt if it gives you job FLEXIBILITY, just like you can do other occupations besides that particular one. A martial arts one can only be used for that 1 field, but getting an accreddited degree allows you flexibility for other lines of work, like business, marketing, teaching at a university etc. Really think about this hard. Any Ph.D., even at a sub-par academic institution or an easy to get into university with accreditation is probably worth more than the non-accredited schools. ACCREDITATION IS THE DIFFERENCE! Very few non-accredited schools have a solid enough academic reputation to get people to respect the degree. It is better not to bother even finding out taking this risk, though. We're talking about job security FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. The stigma follows you around everywhere. This is one of those decisions that will affect your marketibility FOREVER, so really take a second glance at this. I am doing a political science Ph.D. at Georgia State and I would NOT advise anyone to go the easy route because people recognize the difference in academia between the degrees accreddited and ones that aren't. Even if you get publications out, that's great, and maybe the belt itself will be legitimate if under a recognized master and you actually train in a class setting, but the degree means nothing itself. A few teachers in a local district around here applied for jobs with an Internet degree from non-accreditted schools and immediately got fired or were out of the running for the jobs when the employers found out.

http://www.tui.edu/

"Union Institute & University is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools 30 North LaSalle Street, Suite 2400, Chicago, IL 60602-2504, (312) 263-0456."

You can design your own Ph.D. program

[HtTKar]

You guys crack me up.

I have been going to college classes for 8yrs now. I already have what I want, I just go back for more knowledge. You really think you're going to convince anybody that you earned a PHD in 3yrs over the internet. Ha
Might as well tell them you were the high-school president and sold cookies for fundraisers.

Listen, if you want to continue your education to further your own knowledge, and to get you a step above the rest; props to you. But if you think you're going to impress anybody with garbage diplomas and taking the easy way out, you got a lot to learn.

None of that matters when you sit down in front of someone that really knows whats going on. All that really matters is whether or not you can do the job better than the rest. Personally, if anybody ever presented a fake or 3yr internet PHD to me as a reference, I would laugh them out of the office and never waste my time with that person again.