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**PassiveGuy** · 12-21-2000, 02:23 AM

YES I'll saw until this thread is timber:

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

EZ 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."

2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.

1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

hAH!!! If god were a man he would be the biggest genicidel murder of all time, he broke his own commandments therefore he is a bad example and should be in hell???

BTW I'm a christian, I just don't believe everything in the bible is the word of God. Or true for that matter.

**Bahala Na** · 12-22-2000, 07:21 PM

I think we've shown pretty effectively that there are all sorts of pressures and hypocrisies as to how people should act when it comes to violent behavior, but really, when you distill the killer instinct question down to what it really is, and what it means to us these days, you come up with a pretty simple and straightforward answer.

The capacity for killer instinct and violent behavior exists within us all, and as martial artists, we need to have the dedication and introspective nature to become familiar with that instinct, and cultivate the ability to use it constructively. It's the people who don't do this that end up going postal and randomly shooting people from watch towers and the like, because they just don't know how to deal with the emotional pressure when it builds up.

**jester700** · 12-23-2000, 01:13 PM

Yeah, I buy that.

Crafty Dog says something similar on one of the Dog Bros. 1st series tapes. Aggression is an instinct, and barring any constructive ways to vent & exercise it, it WILL manifest in unpredictable (& potentially more dangerous) ways.

People often don't want to buy that (we're not animals, but a higher order of being, blah, blah, blah), but it makes me wonder - if (for example) child beaters could exercise their aggression in different, controlled ways, I wonder what the % would cease being child beaters? ...hmm...

jester

**Evilution** · 12-23-2000, 06:57 PM

Good thread, great posts everyone.

**Bahala Na** · 12-23-2000, 09:00 PM

While this is pure speculation, I have to say that I've been very lucky in that I've always had instructors who cared very deeply about not only developing effective and practical martial arts skill, but in living well. Harley Elmore, Brad Garrison, Paul Vunak, and of course, Guro Dan Inosanto, have always taught great material (in my opinion, the best material in the world), but also the importance of living a good and moral lifestyle. I would imagine that if all the childbeaters out there were constantly surrounded by not only positive and constructive outlets for their aggression, but also the continual input of people who really wanted to see them improve their lives, I'd bet a lot of the violence in this society would go away. Of course, there's always the chance that our gyms would just become full of child beating a**holes. You never know.
Mike

**aseepish** · 12-24-2000, 06:28 AM

Soldiers and Killer Instinct

Originally posted by quietanswer

See, the guy who gets caught killing (for whatever reason) and ends up in jail doesn't get to reproduce as much. so he has a drastically reduced chance of passing on his traits..including the trait that told him killing was an answer..the killer instinct. He's in jail, while passive people are outside partying, marrying, and engaging in all manner of sexual contact...passing on their passive genes.. so way more passives are created each year than aggressives.

What about the baby boomers - the offspring of returning WWII combat veterans? Their parents certainly did a lot of killing and a lot of reproducing. My grandfather would have been the first to reaffirm that war is hell, but he was ready to re-enlist to fight in the Pacific theatre after the Germans surrendered. Men of his generation were also taught that killing is wrong, and that there should never be another Great War. They managed to re-awaken their killer instinct, as soldiers tend to do. This trait can be surpressed, but I don't think it can be erradicated.

On an individual level this is a good thing. As martial artists who train in realistic methods we are making sure that this killer instinct is there when we need it. But on the international level, when it comes to nations fighting nations, the consequences of having a leader with rampant killer instinct can be dangerous - especially in this era of weapons of mass destruction. But a passive leader (A Neville Chamberlain for example) who allows a "rogue state" to become too powerful risks a drawn-out conflict that can destabilize the world. Do we strike hard and fast (Israel in 67), or do we negotiate, apply sanctions, and hope for the best (League of Nations, 1930s)?

I think we need leaders who listen to Vu - calm and collected at long range, but are able to crank up the killer instinct at the right time and place.

Man, I am WAY off topic!

Read John Keegan's "History of Warfare."

-Tony

**Danny T** · 12-24-2000, 03:01 PM

This is a rather long article,
Hope you enjoy and that it provides some thought!

Early humans were insufficient creatures in comparison to their beastly counterparts. They relied upon their superior intellect to insure survival. Through the development and use of strategy and weaponry they improved their natural condition to overcome predators and their most primal fears. In time, as this new understanding of violence began to extend to their fellow man, the warrior evolved as a protector and a force of balance for his clan or tribe. There is no difference today in that we, as martial artists, must understand how our skills extend beyond the traditional context of combat. We now must find relevance in our urban-based life. We must start by addressing these fears in relation to not only our purpose but also to
the dangers inherent in learning to harm other human beings. Socially we have become desensitized to
violence through the different kinds of media (newspaper reports, television, movies). We need to realize that our youth have been dangerously distanced from an understanding of human mortality. Killing, it seems, bears little difference in meaning today than movie violence or a video game.
In "The Denial Of Death", the author asserts that death is the ultimate human fear. All animals must die but, the burden of being human is, we realize this fact and never loose awareness of it. Many psychologist feel that most psychological difficulties stem from our refusal to accept death and the desperate measures we take to avoid this realization. The degree to which we resolve this fear runs the full spectrum from the Buddhist monk’s peaceful acceptance to the obsessive-compulsive’s paranoia however,
reality remains the same:
Either we control our fear or the fear will control us.
As martial artists, we must admit to this fear. First, we must realize that we have been collectively taught to ignore death. We believe it is only natural to do so, thinking, "If it’s going to happen anyway, why worry about it?" Unfortunately, this logic is extremely dangerous. It further separates us from our natural instincts. No longer hunting for survival we have removed ourselves from the carnage of the food chain we belong to and have forgotten the mechanics of death. We buy our meat wrapped up on
styrofoam trays and wear leather goods without any thought or realization as to where it comes from. The truth is something must die for our survival or comfort! When our elders grow old and sick they are shipped off to die conveniently out of sight. The probability that most of us will ever have to defend our land or family in a life or death combat is rare. The end result is that we live most of our lives with out having to contemplate our mortality. Fear of harm or possibility of death is the major reason most train in self defense. It is our obligation to re-sensitize ourselves to this truth and remember that we will die. The warrior’s death-awareness is not a preoccupation with death but is a means of understanding our own greatest limitation. By remembering that a time has been fixed for us on this planet, by knowing what we stand to lose, we can be poised to seize the fruits of the present.
We must realize:
· What we are training to defend
· Violence is unpredictable
· Regardless of our ability we can be killed.
We must never allow our training to exist unquestioned.

To forge a realistic self-defense program, we must recognize that we have a natural inhibition against harming other humans. Studies have proven that we are reluctant to hurt our own species. Despite the bravado of the armchair warriors and the image of violence portrayed in movies, the true self-defense artist understands that it is one thing to practice gouging the air but quite another to actually do it on a human eye. Without proper conditioning, the subconscious mind will limit conscious intention, and natural inhibition will defeat training. The greatest error in learning self defense is to assume that nature will take
over in a hostile encounter and that everything will be all right. The most effective method for overcoming the inhibition to harm others lies in "Operant Conditioning". It teaches reflexive responses to a specific stimulus. For the self defense artist such training should cultivate resolute offensive reflexes against the stimulus of aggression. Training should not only emulate the movements of combat but also incorporate the psychological nuances of violence. In the book, "On Killing", Lt. Col. Dave Grossman cites the example of military snipers who practice shooting a head of cabbage filled with ketchup. The snipers are
rewarded with badges and weekend passes to encourage the same behavior in combat. That is a perfect example of a simple exercise: A little creativity and a simple prop like ketchup make it gruesomely realistic to remind the sniper of the true nature of his task. Repetition encourages desensitization. Reward ensures repetition. My most profound psychological martial training has come from instructors who made me gouge raw meat with my fingers, smash melons with my hands, break wooden dowels with my arm locks and pounded me to the point that I thought I would die. These exercises forever transformed me as I realized I can defend myself in mortal combat, and more importantly I feel reluctant to ever use my true skills. Reality has made me responsible.
Col. Grossman’s research also deals with the psychological implication for teaching soldiers to kill. He cites heightened reflex-conditioning methods for improving firing rates ( the success with which soldiers fire at the enemy) from 15% in WWII to 50% in the Korean War to 90% in the Vietnam War. While that proves the effectiveness of operant conditioning, we must proceed carefully with this
knowledge. In undoing the natural mechanisms of inhibition, what risks do we expose ourselves to? What is the cost of learning to harm our fellow man? A thin line exists between the reality that our mind has grown comfortable with and our underlying finitude. With the exception of the psychopaths that lurk in society, most humans who are made to harm others feel the burden of having acted like a god among men. It is irresponsible to pursue these abilities with out considering the outcome. Although our first
responsibility is to cultivate technique, we must prepare for the effects of violence and create a psychological support network in our mind to integrate the experience positively. Grossman states, "War is an environment that will psychologically debilitate 98 percent of all who participate in it and the 2 percent who are not driven insane by war appear to have already been insane - aggressive psychopaths - before coming to the battlefield."
This debilitation is directly affected by the range at which violence occurs. Closer ranges, including hand to hand and the "sexual range" of grappling are the most offensive. You cannot deny the effect of your actions when you are close enough to feel the splash of blood, the spasms of a death throe or the opponent’s final breath. Modern military conditioning seeks to facilitate the act of killing by maximizing the soldier’s distance from the victim. Increasingly powerful weapons allow the soldier in the trench to be replaced by the sniper, and the sniper to be replaced by the fighter pilot. When soldiers are technologically separated from their victims, the psychological effects of violence are greatly lessened.
The self defense artist is not afforded those luxuries. While a length of pipe, a stick or an umbrella
may serve as a makeshift weapon, they do little to distance you from the effects of their impact. You must understand just how brutal your techniques are. A joint lock in training, with its understanding of leverage and the aesthetics of its geometry, is far removed from the grotesque protrusion of a jagged bone through flesh. My teachers have helped refine my technical fighting abilities; but none had prepared me for coping
with the fear of death, the exhilaration, and remorse of harming another human being. A true warrior must
know and understand the consequences of his actions.
Emotional distance can also be cultivated. For the soldier, this includes "social distance" and "cultural distance" where emphasis is placed on racial and ethnic differences to dehumanize the victim. The language of war is riddled with terms like "Jap", "Gook", and "Slant". The news media refers to "collateral damage" instead of death and wars become campaigns as the carnage is lost in clever euphemisms. We hear that 214 people died in a bombing, scarcely flinch and continue to eat our dinner. The warrior must realize that propaganda and stereotypes are
irresponsible shortcuts to true contemplation. The benefit of overcoming inhibition pales in comparison to the risk of developing discriminatory thought. The objective of the warrior should be to adapt to circumstance and not to approach it with a preconceived resolution. We must remain open to the uniqueness of each experience all the while staying connected with the universal qualities of all humans.
"Moral distance" or the emphasis on the superiority of one’s cause is perhaps the only form of psychological distancing that is applicable. The self defense artist can cultivate moral distance by, defining his limits before conflict arises, increasing his awareness of the value of life, and becoming empowered by the challenge of protecting what he values. By affirming that you did not initiate the circumstance, you become morally empowered to retaliate. Remember what you are training to fight for. If you feel
threatened, you are entitled to defend yourself. According to nature, your instincts obligate you to survive.

To ensure a healthy recovery from a situation in which you must harm someone, an understanding
of the psychological stages involved is essential. These are divided into five distinct areas:

* Harming * Exhilaration * Remorse * Rationalization
* Acceptance

Harming is a mechanical issue best left to your martial art training.
Exhilaration is a natural initial response. You will feel a rush. Expect it. Never be ashamed of it.
Exhilaration staves off remorse and triggers it. By understanding that exhilaration is normal, you have
taken the first step toward avoiding fixation with the adrenal rush of hurting and come a step closer to
resolving remorse.
Resolution of remorse comes through thought, prayer, meditation. Ask why have you acted the way you have. Prepare yourself for guilt. Remorse is the result of emotions overriding your ruling power. Remain logical. Obey your training. Your intelligence must control your emotions.
Rationalization and an understanding of your natural inhibition will lead you to acceptance.
Acceptance is when the warrior can constructively acknowledge the validity of the act of harming.

A failure to cultivate your rationalization skills will place you at risk of overindulging in the remorse stage or of becoming hypersensitive to the act of harming another human being.
Each stage includes its own dangers. The self defense artist must meditate on them. For some, the
rush and the chemical produced by the body during a crisis can become very addictive. More common is a fixation with remorse. Acceptance is often prevented by self-pity, and rationalization is prone to sheer failure as logic and reasoning break down. All these failings can lead to trauma.
Col. Grossman argues that the most powerful therapy for trauma stemming from combat is the recognition and acceptance of the public through memorials and parades. This provides veterans with closure. The Vietnam War is an excellent example of the danger of fighting an unpopular war: Soldiers were condemned for their participation and deprived of any sense of honor. As a result, rates of post
traumatic stress disorder went through the roof as compared to the Persian Gulf War where our soldiers were honored, praised and made into heroes. The martial artist is not privy to those forms of closure. An act of urban violence and rage holds little public importance, yet for the individual it is as traumatic as any war experience.
Authority and the chain of command in the military are the greatest safeguards against abuse of operant conditioning. For the martial artist, the equivalent is your ruling principles. Rational thought reduces guilt, and strategic preparation enables acceptance. Only by having pre-evaluated all your limits can you remain confident that you will act responsibly and effectively during a combat situation. Meditate on your ideological and moral issues before the conflict, not after. Don’t wait until you are at knifepoint to contemplate the moral ramifications of your degree of force. By having obeyed your pre-established
principles, you defer responsibility to logic and avoid many of the pitfalls of emotional interpretation.
Ultimately, the warrior lives a life of preparation for crossing the barrier of mortality. Once the true frailty of the human animal is exposed, you cannot go back in your understanding. You must anticipate the effects of violence, neither enjoying the exhilaration nor indulging in remorse. As a martial artist, you must explore the ideology, psychology, and physiological reality fully in order to functionally serve the family and society you seek to protect.

**DavinWest** · 12-26-2000, 03:03 PM

I myself am a Christian. I beleive that I have NOT been brainwashed, any way shape or form. To understand anything in the bible you cannot take it out of context. Yes it says not to kill, which is just plain ol human rights and such. YOU SHOULDNT KILL OTHER PEOPLE! it is somehting we have all always been taught, y? because its just commen sense! u dont just go around killing people.
There is a purpose for every law. I mean really how would u like it if someone just came up to you and was like hey look i am going to kill you now! and he does it. but ya know what? i betcha that aint gonna happen, ya know why? cuz its wrong, oh no wait i'm sorry we're all just brainwashed, so really we have no care for the value of human life. we are just programed this way? give me a break.

Yes its true many religions go around killing each other everyday, but ya know what? its not because they are not brainwashed its because their beliefs teach them that anyone different should be done away with. The bible does not teach that in any way shape or form. Yes God and christians both killed many people, but that was in self defense, for their own lives. thats why i say you cant take anything out of context.

it isnt brain washing, its called human decency.
Translation is another thing. You have to look at the culture from whence it was translated. One translation says do not kill, one says do not murder, there is a big difference. Murder is in spite Killing is not.

[Edited by DavinWest on 12-26-2000 at 10:35 AM]

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'killer instinct' dampening over 2000+ years. opinions?

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