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The Erosion of JKD?

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  • #16
    I guess you are right... Gotta find out what works through hard sparring. Damn!...

    Burton- Have you used any type of trapping in your sparring sessions?

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    • #17
      Hey Jeyel,
      I am really impressed that you actually thought about it and said that you should test everything under hard sparring! That is having an open mind. I wish I had been able to think that clearly many years ago.
      For traps, if the person is very aggressive, the usual limb trapping is out, at least for me. BUT! You can do "trapping" if you are much closer in the clinch range. There are ways to tie up one or two of your opponent's arms, even when he is aggressive. The techniques come more from wrestling, boxing, judo, etc. You will find similar techniques in other arts too, but the key is how you train it. Enjoy!

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      • #18
        burton, have you aver research the philippine arts of eskrima or arnis with some of the less popular eksrimadors? i am curious if your training method and philosophy on fighting would be different after working with one of those guys.

        are you aware that most philippine martial arts do not practice the drills and trappings and disarmings jeet kune do/philippine martial arts are known for?

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        • #19
          Good question. Besides Dan Inosanto, I have trained with Edgar Sulite, Antonio Ilustrisimo, Christopher Ricketts, Tony Diego, Sam Tendencia, Leo Giron (very little), Manong Duclayan, Lucky Lucay, Ted Lucay, Leo Gaje, Bert Labaniego, GM Mina, Andy Abrian, and have had short sessions with many others. I have trained in the Philippines on 4 different occasions, and growing up in a predominantly Filipino neighborhood gave me the chance to learn from many of my friends' grandfathers. Some of the men who were involved with full-contact stick matches in the Philippines and Hawaii were not wild about disarms, and preferred to hit. The problem is that most of these men did not teach. I believe that a bigger problem is the fact that the majority of the "stickfighting" instructors in the U.S. have never fought even one full-contact match with minimal protective equipment. Since they don't know what it is to fight, they naturally lean toward teaching the most attractive aspects of the art. This is my opinion, but I think there is plenty of fact to back it up. Enjoy!

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          • #20
            I have a question for everyone or anybody (or nobody if you're not interested). It's about the 'if you want to know how to fight, then fight' theory.

            If that is the philosophy that you all train with in mind, why do any sort of trapping or anything, I mean if it all comes down to physical aspects such as strength and stamina and speed and distance and timing and who can 'take a punch to give two' then why is there the need for anything other than sparring and conditioning and physical development?

            In one way I know you are right but in another way I think that its not the only way of looking at fighting.

            I mean some skills must be self taught and must come from real creative scientific thinking and research, and some need to be learnt from sparring. But you cant have one without the other!

            I just think that if all its about is fighting and sparring and hitting and getting hit back and then your skills coming from that, then why must we call it "Jeet Kune Do"? I think that the aim of Jeet Kune Do is to be scientific, that is, search for the truth.

            In science, people come up with theories all the time, that they have developed, spent years just thinking about it and doing sophisticated calculations and simulations. But they wont be recognized for this theory and the theory wont be accepted in the scientific community unless they actually test it under real world conditions.

            I think that Bruce Lee called Jeet Kune Do sophisticated street fighting, is that correct? I really think its important not to lose the sophistication and scientific attention to detail because thats what made Bruce so good, he wouldnt rest until he really perfected his skills and he was satisfied that his chosen body movements were as good and functional as possible! If he just sparred sparred sparred then how would he have been able to develop something like his one inch punch, or that killer side kick?

            I like what Bruce Lee said about it, how you really have to find a balance between instinct and control. If we do religiously practice movements that do not apply directly to fighting or we dont even expect, we are going off the track and wasting our time. But if we rely only on instinct and attributes then we will be very unscientific because there are many 'instincts' humans have that are not useful in a fight and stop us performing to full potential.

            Two examples of each problem would be wushu artists, or whatever, who are living in fantasy land and dont experience the pressure of fighting against an agressive and uncontrollable opponent, and those old bare-knuckle fighter guys, who despite doing nothing all day but fight fight fight trying to kill eachother, still seemed to lack fighting skills, which I say because I believe that the fights used to go for hours and hours and days and nobody would win or get knocked out! So despite all that fighting experience they apparently never DEVELOPED or CREATED. Would anybody disagree that Mike Tyson is not a fearsome fighter? Yet he probably relies on a lot of instinct because he ends up biting and whatever, and I believe that in one case he got into a street fight, punched somebody and broke his hand! The heavyweight champion of the whole world, in a sport/system that uses nothing but punching! So, the little details of, for example, one's punching technique may mean the difference between victory and defeat and should not be neglected!

            I guess that the tricky part is getting yourself high level and razor sharp skills without obsessing over technique which may distract you from what matters and put you in 'fantasy land'.

            That post is way too long and its way too late and Im going to bed. Nite

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            • #21
              I think that everyone here has pretty much the right idea. A balance must be struck between solo training, technique training, attribute training, and sparring. Do it all in a scientific manner. Test theories (or in the case of fighting, techniques and strategies) in a controlled environment in isolation. Focus mitt training or isolation sparring. Once you become comfortable with the "theory" then test it in the real world environment, or all out sparring.

              And do a majority of your training like you would train for sport: in a progressive type manner. To give an example, I will reach back to my days of high school football. Learning how to tackle (the right way) is taught very progressively. First the player is taught the proper mechanics of the tackle in slow motion against a slow or non-moving opponent: keeping the head up, driving the opponent with your legs, wrapping up with your arms, etc. Then the player performs the tackle on hitting dummies (similar to focus mitt and heavy bag training). After that, the palyer is introduced to some timing, motion, and energy in one-on-one tackling drills (similar to isolation sparring, i.e. jab vs. jab). And finally, the player participates in a 11-on-11 scrimage similar to all out sparring). It is then that the player learns how to use the technique (the tackle) in a real world (the game itself) environment.

              We didn't go all out in football practice 100% of the time (it was pretty close though), and you shouldn't do that in martial arts training. Progression is the name of the game folks.

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              • #22
                I borrow the term "progressive resistance" from bodybuilding. If you want to build your legs, you don't go in the gym and squat 500 pounds the first day. First you learn proper form. Then you add resistance. After your body adapts to the resistance, you add more resistance. This is what we do in JKDU. Much like the football analogy, we teach technique, then add more and more resistance over time until the person can handle the all-out sparring. By the way, not everyone wants to participate in all-out sparring, and that is fine. They do know, however, that the skills they develop will be good, but not totally tested until they feel heavy, intense resistance. Just like lifting weights, everyone has different goals, and I believe that we should respect that.

                As far as developing theories, yes, this is vital. We get ideas, then, in scientific method, we test them to see if if we get consistent results that can be duplicated by others.

                I don't condone that students spar heavily often. It is too damaging to the body, and can be bad for your brain. Every once in awhile, though, we need to pull out the stops and experience combat energy. This helps us train more realistically, and keeps us out of fantasyland!

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                • #23
                  It’s about the ‘if you want to learn how to fight, then fight’ theory


                  I don’t see this as being much of a ‘theory’. I would say that it’s pretty obvious that someone that ‘fights’ will be able to out do an opponent that has never fought. In my experience, I have never met a person that has not done real contact stickfighting with minimal gear, that could walk out there for the first time and perform what I would consider “intelligently”. I have had people tell me that they have learned from an old master and he hits them for real. I have had people tell me that they spar with their instructors/masters, etc. But I have never seen someone come out and fight intelligently for their first time. Actually, I have fought with one of Burton’s students and he was the most capable of the ‘first timers’ that I’ve fought with. Jim McRae, of course, though, Burton's school follows more of a sparring oriented progression. Well, hey, they must be doing something right. Fighting is, without a shadow of a doubt, what you have to do if you want to get better at fighting. Is it the only thing to do to get better? Of course not. I haven’t seen anyone here say that, though.

                  If it all comes down to physical aspects such as strength and stamina and speed and distance and timing and who can take a punch to give two


                  Again, I’ve never heard anyone say to take a punch to give two. That’s not my way of thinking, and I’m pretty sure most of us good looking SOB’s don’t like taking punches in a fight to give back a few. I train so that I don’t get hit. I have people try to hit me as hard as they can so that I don’t get hit. The people that I train with do the same. We start off with jab only sparring matches. If you want to try your techniques, than you try it, but you try it against someone that is really trying to hit you with just a jab. It’s not fighitng yet, but it is getting you familiar with speed in distance and timing and the correct energy. Then eventually you add other tools, etc., etc. Sounds like a pretty logical progression to me. Instead of perfecting our techniques, we practice application of our techniques. What’s more perfect than a technique that can be applied?

                  How far can we search for the truth before we can realize the truth? How can we realize the truth? By experiencing the truth.

                  Just my opinion though, and opinions can change.

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                  • #24
                    Also, just a quick point:

                    The change in my perception from 'believing' in what I could do into now 'knowing' what I can do, has been from constantly sparring. It forces me to grow. I now know what it's like for someone to sit on me and try to hit me, etc., and there are no fallacies in my mind bout what I can and can't do in that situation. I know what I can pull off in high percentage most of the time, and know what is extremely difficult for me to pull off most of the time, and also know what I can not pull off most of the time or at all. That has helped me greatly in being able to now choose what I train so that I can be most efficient.

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                    • #25
                      Yes, I agree with everything you say, Chad and Im sure u know a lot more about this stuff than me.

                      But I still think there is value from training by urself occasionally and doing something like, say, just working on ur side kick, or jab or whatever for hours on a bag, and being very technical as to improving your power and speed and everything, so as to develop your technical ability. Maybe I do that more than other people because I study engineering and its part of my nature to try to 'engineer' my technique. And yes, that will only get me so far, and I have to admit that, but I still think that it gives you a big edge over somebody who does fight and spar a lot but doesnt have the same level of technical ability or who doesnt pay attention to the basic and obvious details, i.e. they may know the proper 'energy' or whatever but they just dont have the speed, power, balance etc in their attacks. I mean I watch other people on the bags, karate people or kickboxers and boxers and I can just see the difference in their mentality. They do it like a workout. I do it like Im really hitting somebody and I put 100% into every hit and use 100% speed and power all of the time.

                      I do that sort of training a lot, relatively speaking, because my JKD instructor only teaches privately so I can only train with him every week or two and the only sparring Ive been doing with him so far is just wrestling (which is a different ball game). I think that everything u said is right but you can really see the difference between somebody who trains technically. I mean you can have the best sense of timing in the world but if your opponent is twice as fast, it becomes very difficult. And as a result of 'intelligent' practice, I can go into any of the Taekwondo schools that Ive been to and out-sidekick the instructor. Doesnt mean I could beat him in sparring but I believe I can get more speed and power in most of my kicks. I can hit harder and faster than anybody at my boxing club at uni even though I dont have their level of strength and fitness. I think its because of all my solo technical practice that I have learned how to really get the best out of my body. And I can see how Ive developed those skills because when I train by myself I try to believe that its a fight and I put 100% into every strike. I watch most other guys (and girls) on the bags or just shadow boxing and they are so sloppy that I know that they are just going through the motions and not paying attention to the details. If I shadow box I make sure I snap my punches and kicks or whatever and hit the same way I would if I was fighting somebody right there and then. Now that doesnt mean that I can beat the instructor in sparring, because he has done much more sparring etc and he just has skills that only come from hard sparring or whatever, but it does give me something to work with! It does mean that sometimes I can just hit other guys there almost at will because their slow left jab comes out and I can counter them quickly with a leading straight and it just doesnt give them time to think.

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                      • #26
                        Monkey,

                        I agree that solo practice is very important and hitting the bag does a lot to improve form and build power. Nevertheless, a good balance between that type of training and "live" training must be struck. I think my Muay Thai trainer Chris said it best when he told me something along the lines of this:
                        "Man, don't matter one bit how pretty your punch look on the bag. If you don't got the timing to make that motherfukker land against a guy who's moving around quick and really trying to knock your head off, then you ain't got jacksh!t. You see a lot of these guys who never do nuthin except come in and hit the bag all day long? They look good and mean doing that but I tell you for most of them, all their good form goes out the window when they actually sparring with a good partner. They afraid to spar, which means they afraid to fight. They getting a good workout in, and its taking them to a certain level. But if they ever want to get to a level that really matters, they'd better take it all the way. Otherwise they might as well be doing that box-aerobics sh!t. Most of them is just fooling themselves."

                        I think that what he said to me holds a lot of truth. Solo practice is a crucial building block for the technique and conditioning needed to be a competent fighter. But just like any other kind of puzzle, it is not complete without the other pieces. In terms of actual application, you are simply learning how to hit a heavy inanimate object. When you spar you are learning how to use your tools in a fight. I personally spent a good amount of time only working the bag and doing drills before i actually started sparring. But before i learned how to spar full contact, I never thought that I was making any meaningful progress in terms of fighting proficiency. Anywayz, that's my two cents for what its worth.

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