Knuckles!

[Barry]

Other solutions.

Monkey,

Instead of tying your heavy bag at an angle, you might want to do what I am considering. Bruce Lee often trained with Canvas Bags filled with different material. Sand, Beans, and Metal Shavings. Each giving him a different feel or texture to work against. These bags were tied to a wall and gave his hands the incremental conditioning and strengthening they needed. They are very affordable and the fill for the bags is easily found at a local hardware store or such.

Your completely correct about the heavy bag not being meant for bare-fisted workouts. It seems to me that it is meant for aerobic and power training, with light or moderate bag gloves. I can tell you that my heavy bag is almost like hitting a wall, it is not even moderately forgiving.

For precision punch training, I think I will try the canvas bags. I am going to experiment with different fill (such as beans, sand, etc.) to try and simulate the different textures of the human body (stomach, head, chest, etc.) I can tie these canvas bags at differnt angles and at multiple locations to also practice speed and precision.

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/discountmas/makun.html

This is the store I'm going to buy these at.

If you have any other suggestions, I would appreciate it.

Take care.

[Dion]

Monkey,

Amusing again...

Freedom Ultimate... !



PS: The idea of maximising the knuckle surface area upon strike contact is exactly why the sun fist is used (because you hit the target with the most number of knuckles at once) hehehehe learn a bit more about different MA styles :P

[Dion]

Monkey,

Wing chun students are not taught to keep their shoulders in a rigid forward position but are taught to relax their shoulders in a forward position, just simply let them slump forward... quite easy to do...

They are also not taught to push with the hips, heh they are taught to rotate from the hip instead just as you say Bruce had adopted and yet this was part of his fundamental Kung Fu lessons...

You say also there isnt much velocity in a wing chun style centre line punch this means you have obviously not looked at all of the torque produced and other factors involved in one of the punches when done correctly...

Also a Wing chun punch is not meant to push the fist, instead it is like the snap of a whip as once described...

Oh and a palm strike is much more powerfull than a punch as there is less give in the base of the palm than in the fist...

hehehe

Freedom Ultimate... !



PS: A boxing punch is described more as a pushing of the fist where when the punch contacts and follows through so as to create a clubing effect and this uses different knuckle orrientations depending on the angle of attack(this is how the punching bag is struck as well)... now the kung fu punch does not use the follow through but instead comes to a dead instant stop upon contact and is at max rigidity and this creates a totally different effect causing the force to be passed into the object it hits and so creates a massive jar or shock and this effect uses the maximum knuckle contact idea so as to create a greater area of effect in the shock.. There are others like the Karate punch using the first two knuckles in the idea they are the strongest two knuckles and the little knuckle being the weakest should be avoided and also since there are only two making contact then the damage will be more focused in a smaller area and hence hurt more but then the mechanics of these punches work totally differently again and then to mention all of the other styles and reasonings would go on for some time.... but you being an engineer student should be able to work out all the factors involved in each 'correctly'...

PSS: Using a bag to strengthen your wrists... hmm does this sound right ? hehehe

[Monkey]

Why do you claim to have all the answers?
A palm strike is not as powerful as a strong punch, according to both practical experience and scientific theory.

Why is it amusing? Will it be amusing when you are fighting for your life? Take it seriously or one day you will wish you did.

A palm has about the same amoung of 'give' as knuckles. But it has a large surface area so will not 'penetrate' the target, i.e. low surface pressure.
I dont understand where the basis in your arguments are. You just say things without giving a reason.

"PS: The idea of maximising the knuckle surface area upon strike contact is exactly why the sun fist is used (because you hit the target with the most number of knuckles at once) hehehehe learn a bit more about different MA styles :P"

This is a bunch of crap, man. I mean they use those knuckles because you can use the wrist for a snap at the end and they line up nicely. Not for maximum surface. You are so ignorant of science. Why MUST we learn about styles, why not the human mind and body, I think thats more important.

Ive watched wing chun students hitting a heavy bag in Hong Kong, under a master. They just move forward and put their fists out. THERE IS NO TORQUE. The so called masters of the schools claim there is, but... no. They were pathetic. I have yet to see a wing chun punch that had a lot of torque.

Yes they relax the shoulders, supposedly, but when the torque comes along... rather than going with the flow, they resist for the sake of keeping their shoulders 'front facing'. They cant make the cake and eat it, for ****'s sake.

"They are also not taught to push with the hips"

In my experience, THEY ARE.

"You say also there isnt much velocity in a wing chun style centre line punch this means you have obviously not looked at all of the torque produced and other factors involved in one of the punches when done correctly... "

Even though you have pretense as a JKD-enlightened person, you still cling to concepts of style. Why?

"now the kung fu punch does not use the follow through but instead comes to a dead instant stop upon contact"

Yeah, right... what a bunch of shit. THats just because they practice either in mid air, or on a rigid thing that will hurt their hands if they use too much power.
Full stop, like that works. Bullshit. No follow through, no penetration, no pressure, no damage. Lovely.

I mean just read Tao of JKD or Bruce Lee's fighting method. He wasnt about all that traditional 'come to a complete stop before contact' bullshit. Crack of the whip. Bullshit. This aint a whip, this is punching. He said in Skill in Techniques, that the wrist, in heavy punching, is like a club, with no active wrist joint. One solid piece. And of course you have to penetrate and 'follow through' or the punch will not do damage. It will be a flick. FLICKY! FLICKY! Thats why punching in the air is not as good or as realistic as working with something that resists, at least when we are talking about just punching for speed and power and all the rest.

You just keep deluding yourself with that stuff, see how far you get with it, ignorance is bliss. Traditional romanticism and unproven and unsupported 'theory', nothing more, nothing less. If that 'way' was much better, why has no full contact fighting discipline adopted it? Oh but there's always an argument for the traditional arts, just like there's always an argument for a religious fanatic when somebody tries to find a hole in the bible or koran or whatever their chosen piece of propaganda is.

"and is at max rigidity and this creates a totally different effect causing the force to be passed into the object it hits and so creates a massive jar or shock and this effect uses the maximum knuckle contact idea so as to create a greater area of effect in the shock.. "

This it total crap with no research behind it, I can see it a mile away. Thats just crap that you're making up on the spot. Maximum knuckle area for greater area of effect in the shock, MY ****ING ARSE, MATE. THat is bullshit. Pressure and force doesnt work like that in the real world.

PRESSURE = FORCE / AREA, mate, think about it. Its the most basic concept in materials science / engineering.

Pressure (aka STRESS) is what does the damage, NOTHING ELSE. THINK ABOUT IT FOR ****'S SAKE.

"little knuckle being the weakest should be avoided and also since there are only two making contact then the damage will be more focused in a smaller area and hence hurt more but then the mechanics of these punches work totally differently again "

A punch is a punch, mate. Using the fist, to hit, with force, causing pressure on the surface, causing damage. Which knuckles you use are irrelevant to how you move your elbow or shoulder or hips. I can hit with the top two with a vertical punch or the bottom three for a karate punch, no worries. Its just that you think that anything outside of established styles and patterns is not possible, thats your ****ing problem.

"again and then to mention all of the other styles and reasonings would go on for some time.... but you being an engineer student should be able to work out all the factors involved in each 'correctly'... "

being an engineering student has **** all to do with it except that Ive been taught concepts that apply to models that apply to things in real life like force and pressure and stuff like that. just do a bit of research if you want to uunderstand what goes on in a punch, its not terribly hard stuff. then come and tell me that more surface area = greater 'shock effect'.

"Using a bag to strengthen your wrists... hmm does this sound right ? hehehe "

WHY NOT? it will teach you wrist alignment real fast, with no gloves. and if you watch one of those limp wristed guys from a wing chun club try to hit a bag, man its funny I mean they cant punch for shit, in my experience. they only ever pull their punches. whether on air or on a dummy, they are ALWAYS pulled. they never even have the feeling of a penetrating and damaging blow, even on a bag.

it doesnt matter where it comes from, the truth matters and you will never get anywhere close to the truth unless you are scientific, because think about it, what is science? the pursuit of the unfragmented and unbiased truth, no matter how, where, why or when it is found, or WHO FOUND IT. does god exist? religious people say yes. aethiests say no. science says we dont know and we cant know so lets forget about it.

just come on man, stop thinking like a traditional martial artist and try a little bit more of the Bruce Lee mojo, get scientific and get to the heart of the matter regardless of what "STYLE" says, whether its kung fu or boxing or the bruce lee way or my way or my dog's way or whatever.

[strblast]

Hi everyone,

Hey Monkey, I think it's good that your last knucke is getting the most conditioning. The last three knuckles are the weakest of the entire fist, so they tend to get injured the most. Eliminating your weaknesses is always good.

I too had the same problem when I started hitting the bag with straight punches, the other two knuckles weren't getting enough "punishment". Try doing some hook punches at body height (ribs), they ought to get the rest of the knuckles into action.

Have you started conditioning your elbow?

[Monkey]

Do elbows really need conditioning? I mean how much tougher can they get?

[likuid]

HOLY LONG POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Alan]

Hey Monkey, just trying to answer your original post, try turning the fist so that the palm is slightly upward. The reason the last knuckle hits fist is like barry said the punch is trvelling upward.

Some wing chun people say the sun character fist should be rotated depending on the target area. For punches that go straight out the fist is maintained vertical so that the last 3 knuckles hit.
For punches hitting very high, the fist is rotated so that the palm faces upwards, this again allows for the 3 knucles to contact, if a vertical fist were maintained the bottom knuckle hits first.
For low punches the fist is turned more horizontal (like a karate punch) a totally vertical fist punch in this case means that the top index finger knuckle connects first as opposed to the bottom 3.

Of course this is from a wing chun perspective, with the hand starting out from the centre of the chest. Don't know if it helps you or not....

[jester700]

IIRC, the old bare knuckle boxers used to use a palm up structure a lot. I always figured it was to increase that "head snap" effect for easier knockout and for the increased difficulty of seeing the punch come in from below. But maybe there was a knuckle safety factor, too.