Dealing with knees

[Kevin]

Hi guys...

What do you think are the best ways to deal with knees out of the clinch?

~Kev

[sikal]

Originally posted by Kevin
Hi guys...

What do you think are the best ways to deal with knees out of the clinch?

~Kev

Well, I learned this very early (for me anyway) one morning in South Carolina while staying with Pak Victor de Thouars. He woke me up and said, "Mike, you know how Thai guys use knees?" I said I was no expert at it, but that I knew the basics. He said, "Good. Do it on me." I put my hands around his neck (MT calls it a plumb) and I threw a knee. The next thing I knew, I was rolling across the floor. What he'd done was to shoot his forearm into my thigh and step forward. It jammed up the knee so that it didn't have any real force left, and the step forward offbalanced me and sent me rolling.

A few weeks later, I was sparring a friend of mine who is 16 & 2 as an amateur MT competitor. He got me in a clench and delivered a knee. I did what Pak Vic had done and, lo & behold, Chris went rolling across the floor. He came up and said, "What the !@#$ just happened!?"

Mike

[Maxximus]

I think the most important thing is to not let him control you in the clinch...meaning don't let him throw you aroudn off balance like a rag doll and deliver knees to his leisure. If he gets that control on you, you can only block successfully so many times. You have to keep your posture so that he does not control you and get the leverage and positioning to throw a good knee and you have to move in tight with him so that he doesn't have the distance to throw it. From there, its simply a matter of getting out of the plum. In my experience, it is hopeless and foolish to think about defending against each individual knee. You have to think strictly in terms of establishing dominant position and not giving him the opportunity to take good shots.

[Evilution]

Doing a knee grab is good. Sometimes I can manage to move my leg at the last second and make my opponent's knee glance off, or jam his knee with a knee of my own. A pre-emptive knee strike doesn't even have to hurt the guy, just protect you for the time that are throwing it. But I think Maxximus made the best point already and that is position in the clinch. If a guy has a deathgrip on my neck and I'm bent over so far from it that I look like I'm bowing to him, plus he's leading me around the room at his will, there is no way I'm gonna be able to knee him effectively. If the position is the other way around I can knee with near impunity, I just have to watch out for the knee grab. I'd say that bodily control of the opponent is primary for anything in the clinch.

[jester700]

Sikal,
Could you detail this a bit more? (e-mail's OK if nobody else cares)

What knee of yours to Pak Victor, were you pulling him to a side, which of his forearms, the angle of his step, etc.

I'm not getting the picture very clearly...

thanks.

[Paul Sharp]

Kevin,
You have to control the tie-up. Thats priority number one. Next you must keep pressure on 'em, forward pressure. Grind them right into the ground. Usually if I am doing those two things as well as splitting their legs with one of mine I can manage to keep them to busy and off-balance to throw anything.

Counters if you are controlling the tie-up:
1) As you feel them set up for the knee hit a lateral drop or pancake
2) Setup for a Sag, as soon as they go for the knee, hit the Sag and take them down.
3) If you have a neck tie, when they go for the knee and are on one foot, just rip them laterally and down, send a knee into the side of their head.

thats a few we do.

Counters if you are not controlling the tie-up:
1) While trying to swim a hand inside to regain control, keep your other hand on their hip so you can drop your forearm in on their thigh to jam the knee.
2) If you see them timing the knee,ie; leg up on toes loading up, drop elevation and hit a single leg. You should be able to see this since if they are controlling the tie-up, your head is in and down.
3) The main thing is to control their hips when they have your head. I try to post my head on the inside of one of their shoulders to prevent a snap down. Then I either work to control their hips or I try to thread my arms inside theirs and take the tie-up back. If possible I pull in on their hips hoping to get them to pull away, when they pull I push and use the space to sneak around to their side. Hopefully I can sink a side-body-lock and turn the game around on him.

Thats some of the stuff I do here on a regular basis, hope it helps. Just remember, Knees are all well and fine until someone loses an eye.

-Paul Sharp

[sikal]

Originally posted by jester700
Sikal,
Could you detail this a bit more? (e-mail's OK if nobody else cares)

What knee of yours to Pak Victor, were you pulling him to a side, which of his forearms, the angle of his step, etc.

I'm not getting the picture very clearly...

thanks.

Well, what I was doing was pulling him to my right and down to deliver an upward right knee. I'm not sure which forearm he used ... but judging on how I went down, I would guess it was his right right forearm. His step, I believe, was right into me ... though it was hard to tell at the time (when you suddenly find yourself rolling across the floor trying to avoid crashing into a couch, the details get a little fuzzy :-) and is even harder to remember (this was a year or so ago).

However, through playing with it, I have come to the conclusion that the options are pretty open. You can use either forearm against either knee ... but the effect on them differs. I think the most important part is the step into it.

It should be noted, though (and I probably should have mentioned it to begin with) that this is against the linear knee. Against the "hooking" knee (I don't know the MT term ... but it comes up from the side and then hooks into the ribs/thigh instead of coming straight from the ground toward the ribs), you'd have to step toward the "hook". However, you can kill both of these birds with one stone by always stepping toward the "hole" left when they lift their foot to throw the knee. On a linear knee, it is less important but still works. On the hooking knee, if you step the other way it won't decrease the impact much.

Hope that's a little clearer :-) Like I said (and as Maxximus also mentioned), I think the important part is closing the distance and keeping your balance (which the step that Pak Vic did also accomplishes) are the primary keys. What you tack onto that foundation is kind of up to you.

Regards, Mike

[Chad W. Getz]

Kevin, another thing that you might try...if the opponent has good control on you and has a stronger upper body game, you can use the principles of the hubud counter to counter knees and go for the back or side, etc. By principles I mean the stop inside (using forearm...mayby like sikal was describing?...left forearm ridge against a right knee?) than use the right forearm ridge to ride it past you and other hand or shoulder pushing against dumog control point. Sounds like something similar to sikal description..in my mind anyway. Sikal?

[sikal]

Originally posted by Chad W. Getz
Kevin, another thing that you might try...if the opponent has good control on you and has a stronger upper body game, you can use the principles of the hubud counter to counter knees and go for the back or side, etc. By principles I mean the stop inside (using forearm...mayby like sikal was describing?...left forearm ridge against a right knee?) than use the right forearm ridge to ride it past you and other hand or shoulder pushing against dumog control point. Sounds like something similar to sikal description..in my mind anyway. Sikal?

Yup, same principle being applied (assuming you're using a forward momentum to slow/"stutter" the knee with the first forearm ... since this is customarily part of the low-line hubad, I assume it's implied :-). This would be the Filipino flavored version of the same principles. Silat Serak (which is what Pak Vic was using) is known for its directness and it likes to move in and drive its opponents into the ground (at least in my limited perception). Kali (again, in my limited perception) tends to prefer to shunt things off and angulate around the opponent instead of through the opponent (like Serak). Both methods are certainly plausible ... it's a matter of body type and preference as to which is "better" (relative term). They are utilizing the same basic principle though ... it's what they do with that principle that differs :-)

Regards, Mike