JKD concepts and BJJ

[dan downard]

If the concept of JKD is to throw out anything that doesnt work for you.Wouldnt you have to learn all the techniques before you can pick what works for you?Everyone has differant body styles and attributes.Some may be able to pull off moves consistantly while they just wont work for others.
Rather than pick what you have seen work the most and concentrateing on just those moves,shouldnt a student be taught everything so they can decide what works best for them?
Particularly in BJJ.Where one move leads to another.
I hear alot of talk about throwing out what doesnt work.
Rather than just throwing it out.Maybe you just arnt doing it right.Or at the wrong time.Why doesnt it work for you?Thoughts?

[Kevin]

Hi Dan,

I guess you have several options...

Try EVERYTHING and discard that which doesn't seem applicable.

Try those things which seem to be applicable (thru an educated eye, recommendation, etc...), and discard that which doesn't fit in your program.

Let someone else(trusted instructor, training partner) do the footwork, and discard that which doesn't fit in your program.

I guess if you don't have access to someone you trust who can lead by experience, you have to look into those things which look good.... and that you have the opportunuty to train in.

Thanks for dropping in on this side of the Mousel divide!

Later...
~Kev

[dan downard]

I guess what I am asking is ,does the JKD concept apply to BJJ right away?Or should one try and learn all he can before making choices of what will or wont work.
I agree that having someone with insite and experience teach you in the first place is great.But,how long and how much do you need to know before you conciously make those choices.Like I mentioned before.I may not be doing something right or doing it at the wrong time.Does that mean it doesnt work for me?Or should one try and make the move work?
The same goes for anything else.
After watching someone else pull off a move or punch or kick.You try and try ,yet never get it.Do you continue to try and master that technique?Then decide if you like it?Or just move on to something you catch on to quickly.

[Chad W. Getz]

Great question, Dan. Unfortunately, not one easily answered. How do we determine what is "effective" and what is "not"? Especially when we see how some people are adept from working from the guard, some from the mount, some with vale tudo, etc. I think that if your interest is in BJJ, than you should study the entire system of the fighter in which you admire, if possible. I also remember Bruce Lee mentioning somewhere, something about catching the "essence" of other arts as a part of cross training. For example, to mix two arts of capoeira and BJJ, you've got to look at what you've got and where you want to mix it, right. Obviously, you won't be training the high kicks to mix in with your takedowns, but the kicks that they do while on their back and hands could play as a great addition on to the BJJ long range guard. Man, if I had the time, money, and didn't have to work, I'd study GJJ at Relson's Honolulu Academy 4 nights a week, box at Kalakaua Boxing Gym twice a week, Kickbox MT style twice a week, stickfight once a week, and vale tudo once a week, maybe with a yoga class thrown in. But, some of us don't have that kind of time or money, so we have to settle in looking at who we would like to emulate as a fighter. Than we learn from that person, and start to think for ourselves. Like I said, it's so hard to answer, because it is a matter of opinion, and my opinion, may not be accurate, I have no current lineage into JKD. Currently, I am aiming at training material that has a higher percentage rate that I know of right now, and hopefully have the opportunity for my "techniques" to branch off or evolve as I grow every day. But, I'm sure you know most of that. Good topic though.

[Paul Sharp]

-Paul Sharp

[dan downard]

Hello Paul.Did you have a comment?I am already aware of the SBG motto.Did you have something to add?

[Paul Sharp]

Sorry Dan, I deleted my post because upon review it made absolutely no sense. Then I actually forgot about the thread because I have been a little busy lately.

The motto is actually my signature line. I didn't post that.

I'm also aware that you do or have trained at the gym. That certainly sparks my curiousity regarding your question.

You would have to agree that there are high percentage moves out there. Singles and Double legs have been around for as long as wrestling and for good reason. Should I spend a great deal of timeworking on some esoteric takedown from some remote part of the world that only works when the moon is in the fifth house so I can make sure and give an athlete everything?or should I work hard to perfect my athletes single and double against every possible opponent so he or she has a high percentage move in the minimal amount of time? I don't know that I am stunting the growth of my athletes in any way. I encourage the athletes in the gym to train with everyone possible and bring those experiences back to the mat. I'm not going to spend my training time working on stuff that is unreliable. If they want to find it and train it, great. I'll even point them in the direction of people I know that teach that stuff. But, that is in keeping with the Gym philosophy.

I think a large part of this question comes down to Coaching. Your coach will help you to develop your game, based on your unique blend of attributes. I have guy's that are very tall, the only way they are going to hit a double on someone of normal stature would be to have their opponent stand on a step ladder. Otherwise they will scrape their chin on the ground when they take a penetration step. Another example would be a guard pass, a athlete that is 6'5" and 270 pounds of muscle will probably make the can opener his guard pass/submission. His attributes support this.

Dan Gable did not need to study every remote possibility in the wrestlingworld. Just develop the attributes and coaching methods to make the probablities work against everyone he ran into and over on the mat.

This doesn't mean more techniques. This means coaching the athlete to make the high percentage moves uniquely his or hers so they can hit them against everyone they compete against.

I look at it this way. There is a reason some moves are found in every combat art out there. Its because they work, the other stuff is just filler.

Hope this made sense.

-Paul Sharp

[Chad W. Getz]

Good post Dan. Just the other night, I was training at Herb's school, and he was mentioning something about the guillotine choke and most people being aware of it now and a few adjustments that could make it better. Last night working out, I started adjusting every guillotine attempt the way he showed it, and came out with a higher percentage success...like 100%. End result, in with the new, out with the old. Thought that might relate.

[dan downard]

Thanks Paul.I understand that aspect of training very well.I read some posts that were quoting Guru Dan as saying you should learn the whole system before you start throwing stuff out.That made me start thinking about those moves that are part of BJJ that I havent been shown and I am told I dont need.
For example,if you are very small.Arnt those 80 subs from the guard going to be very valuable to you?More so than to a guy who is 6' 200lbs?
Say I am grappling with a guy that is larger and more powerful than I am.He has position on me and all I am doing is avoiding subs and escaping bad positions.I am able to defend everything he throws at me.But,I am not doing much to put him in danger at all.Because I dont know all those different subs from the guard.
At this point I am thinking it sure would be nice to have those 80 subs in my head.Or at least 20.

[Chad W. Getz]

Wouldn't the subs that were meant for the small man be better for the big man to learn anyway? If a small man can work a sub with little strength, wouldn't the big man be able to make that sub more effective by supporting it with strength. Here's a question that may be relevant. I live in Hawaii, and people do not wear jackets or anything resembling a gi, much. We mostly wear shorts and slippers(flip flops) and the girls wear bikinis and grass skirts , so the question is should someone in that type of environment learn 1000 gi techniques, than cut down to the 500 techs that work without the gi, than the 200 that works once you add striking, than the 75 that work once you add biting (this isn't a biting validity thread, but principly exampled). Would the 75 techs that can be worked be able to work without the bites, and then without the strikes, and then with the gi? What do you guys think? Dan, I think I also read Dan saying something similar in an interview, but, I also remember B.L. saying something about catching the essence of the art. Otherwise, how would we be able to train if we had to train so much?

[Paul Sharp]

Dan,
One principle I keep in mind is keep it simple and safe. Hicks Law states that the more things your brain has to process in the moment of "truth" the longer it will take for you to respond.

Now you have to ask yourself, how many different ways are there to hit an arm bar? Not many. Why get bogged down with the 80 different techniques. I have found the real answer is developing a my response to a visceral level than get the mat time in to develop the timing and other elements needed to set it up.

If you are the lighter guy going against the bigger guy and you both are pretty close in skill and conditioning..., you deserve an atta boy for your ability to escape and maintain your mobility.

-Paul Sharp

[dan downard]

Props for every ground skill I have has to go to Robert and Matt.I was a piece of carpet to be walked on when I started at their school.
I am able now to be quite comfortable on the bottom.
What I seem to lack is the ability to submit the larger guys from the bottom.
I watched Royce fight many men larger than he.I never did see anything but the large percentage moves used by him if he was in any trouble.
Is this what I am missing?
Is it because you put yourself at risk everytime you go for a sub?
Is this a way of limiting your vulnerability?
By going only for subs you can recover guard from if you miss?
Is it better to just defend than go for a sub that if you miss,you could be in a very bad position?
I think this leads us into the BJJ vs Shooto styles.
I am sure you have heard the anology of the loaded gun.What good is six bullits if you keep missing?If your aim and timing are good you only need one.
I was told the BJJ guys will always take a shooto guy because of that reason.But,I talked to a fellow who went to Japan and fought a shooto guy who he said was putting him in armbars from every position and he was so buisy defending everything he had no time to build a defence or look for a sub.
Now,after hearing about that.What is a bad position?Is it bad only if you get caught?Can you make a bad position into a good position as long as you are working subs and keep your opponant in danger and defending?

[Paul Sharp]

Dan,
Top Game is money, no doubt. Even when I have guard I am looking to get Top. The game is just so much easier when your on top.

There is a certain amount of risk when you go for a sub, but it is a calculated risk. In my opinion you are at greater risk by spending your time escaping from bottom. I would rather work to guard or sit-out and than start from neutral position again. Even if I lose guard and have to go to quarter at least he didn't get anything either.

The easy answer about vulnerability is to say, position before sub. That doesn't mean you have to play a passive guard game. That is a type of thinking that has carried over from strictly sport BJJ. If you have a short time limit its easy to jump into the guard, collect your points and hang on until time runs out. That is great for sport and weight classes but sucks when you get stacked, mashed and G/P'ed. Focus on an active guard, constantly putting pressure on your opponent. They won't have time to squash you if they are continually guarding against a sit-out, reversal or sub.

A bad position is only bad if you get caught and a if caught you can reverse a bad position if you stay active. Shake, rattle and roll baby. Create space through movement, stick your knee or elbow in the space and start escaping. Now he has to focus on maintaining position instead of working his sub.

This is some of the stuff I do, hope it helps.

Tell Matt I said Hi.

-Paul Sharp

https://www.straightblastgymillinois.com

[dan downard]

Thanks for your input you guys.I think more mat time is my only answer.Try harder and practice more.
Seems to be the answer I always get.
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
And it always comes back to more mat time.