Knife or stick vs Gun

[brokenelbow]

I don't mean to rain on anyones parade, but all of the weapons in the world mean very little if you're frozen in fear. Loud noises like gunshots in an enclosed area can be disorienting and cause you to go to ground, having someone walk into a safe, quiet classroom with a gun and start shooting takes a little time to get your thoughts around. It's happened over and over again and it's the first problem that you have to overcome in this type of scenario.

[Tant01]

I don't mean to rain on anyones parade, but all of the weapons in the world mean very little if you're frozen in fear. Loud noises like gunshots in an enclosed area can be disorienting and cause you to go to ground, having someone walk into a safe, quiet classroom with a gun and start shooting takes a little time to get your thoughts around. It's happened over and over again and it's the first problem that you have to overcome in this type of scenario.

Can you say OODA... See John Boyd

The idea of attacking your attacker is to put HIM into that reactionary frame of mind.

[treelizard]

It's been a long time since I read it, but On Combat said that some people wouldn't hear anything. Your ears just shut off, or something.

[darrianation]

I have a few thoughts on this if anyone cares and if you don’t I can’t give a rat’s ass.
I am referring to the original question and not the tangents. In my opinion there would be times I’d rather have a knife than gun in my hand especially concerning the contact range but for most general purpose work the gun is the tool of choice.

Mike talked about entry teams but any entry is a dangerous proposition and you would have to mad to do it solo. I would rather wait for the baddy to come to me and ambush him than go looking for him. If you live in a non-permissive environment such as these students did, remember the badguy will most likely always have a greater advantage over you because you choose to abide by the law which places you in an inferior position and a confrontation with a baddy will likely be disproportional.

There is a blind spot behind the doorway just beyond the threshold that is impossible to see from behind the threshold called the hard jam. Not even an entry team “pieing” an open doorway can see it. The management of this area is to take it hard, fast, and violently and hope a bad guy isn’t there. If he is then you may have to resort to alternative infight methods to retain your weapon before you can shoot him if your teammate hasn’t already. If the doorway is closed the pre-entry management is different but after the threshold has been penetrated it is the same.

Someone waiting behind the door jam or other non-visible location (behind a book shelf, desk, etc) with large stick or a can of OC spray may have a chance to do enough initial damage (blow or blinding him with the spray) or simply strike and grab that a disarm maybe possible.

But if there had been an armed student or professor/employ with a CCW and the courage to stand up there would have been fewer casualties. The fact that the college campus is a non-permissive environment the students and faculty were placed at a greater risk and the fact is it led to greater numbers of casualties.

[Tant01]

Good point.

It's been a long time since I read it, but On Combat said that some people wouldn't hear anything. Your ears just shut off, or something.

Auditory exclusion is common in high stress situations as is so called "tunnel" vision and memory loss.

Almost every higher brain function will fail under extreme duress as does fine motor function.

[darrianation]

I just wanted to add that CWO Loo used to say (Instructor at the Seal qualification course): "You must be physically and mentally prepared - trained to win the gunfight, and accomplish the mission. Your responsibility to be ready for the fight never ceases."- CWO L00

[Tom Yum]

Welcome back, man.

[treelizard]

Yeah, we missed you.

[treelizard]

I'm looking for someone qualified to write an article about school shootings and violence in the schools for my website. It should cover things students, teachers, administrators, etc. could do to prevent these types of situations and what to do in worst case scenarios, and I'd like it if it was all legal measures. If anybody's interested in writing something, please let me know within the next week or so! Also a synapsis of school shootings over the past 20 years of whatnot would be useful.

I got about 6500 unique visitors to my website in '06 and about 5400 this year so far so you have the opportunity to reach a lot of people (but no promises.)

[Tant01]

We have such a capacity to organize, catagorize and isolate specific things into our puny little minds that some folks just can't see the big picture.
No way as way and no limitation... Right? JKD?
Every time we start putting THINGS into a box it limits the potential for free thinking. FREEDOM from limitation.
The QUESTION of stick, knife or gun reflects the limitation. Since WORDS are the medium to spell this out (again)
The answer is "and"
...
Time tested and proven again and again...
The OODA loop...
***
Col. Boyd developed and pressed forward a simple, yet deeply profound model now known as the OODA cycle or as it often called, Boyd's Cycle. The cycle of Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act is the essence of combat and present in any human conflict.
Col. Boyd considered and defined the nature of combat in terms of time. All engagements were a competition for time, a precious commodity not voluntarily relinquished by either party. Col. Boyd understood the importance and advantages of relentlessly forcing the adversary to deal with a rapid (series)* of serious events in order to disorient and get inside the opponents OODA cycle.
Once inside, time for the insider moves as it should, one event flowing to the next in a predictable pattern, the outcome virtually certain. On the other hand, the victim is stuck in time. He has no apparent opportunities to Observe and Orient meaningful events. Decisions and Actions are ineffective. He is pulled down and entangled in an unrecoverable death spiral.
In the battle *... the goal is simple; get inside (*his mind) and stay there.

Observe, Orient, Decide and Act. O.O.D.A.
The acronym is easy to remember. The cycle itself is absolutely crucial to understand if one is regularly in harms way. In order to consistently and effectively defeat opponents, you must sequentially move through the OODA cycle whether you are aware of it or not. It is *a model that can be used to dissect compressed timeframes in a logical and sequential manner. All engagements [/B]whether they are air-to-air dogfights or an up close and personal, hand-to-hand confrontation, conform to this simple, powerful, and insightful model.

* edited


From; Got a Second?
Boyd's Cycle ... OODA Cycle
Written by Ken J. Good �Director, Surefire Institute

http://radio.weblogs.com/0107127/stories/2003/02/08/oodaCycleByKenGouldDirectorSurefireInstitute.html

[brokenelbow]

And if he's on the A part of the cycle and you're just beginning the first O what do you do? What if you're the one heading into the death spiral?

There is a solution.

[Tant01]

And if he's on the A part of the cycle and you're just beginning the first O what do you do? What if you're the one heading into the death spiral?

There is a solution.

Do tell....(?)

[FightingEdge]

...
Time tested and proven again and again...
The OODA loop...
***
Col. Boyd developed and pressed forward a simple, yet deeply profound model now known as the OODA cycle or as it often called, Boyd's Cycle. The cycle of Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act is the essence of combat and present in any human conflict.
Col. Boyd considered and defined the nature of combat in terms of time. All engagements were a competition for time, a precious commodity not voluntarily relinquished by either party. Col. Boyd understood the importance and advantages of relentlessly forcing the adversary to deal with a rapid (series)* of serious events in order to disorient and get inside the opponents OODA cycle.
Once inside, time for the insider moves as it should, one event flowing to the next in a predictable pattern, the outcome virtually certain. On the other hand, the victim is stuck in time. He has no apparent opportunities to Observe and Orient meaningful events. Decisions and Actions are ineffective. He is pulled down and entangled in an unrecoverable death spiral.
In the battle *... the goal is simple; get inside (*his mind) and stay there.

Observe, Orient, Decide and Act. O.O.D.A.
The acronym is easy to remember. The cycle itself is absolutely crucial to understand if one is regularly in harms way. In order to consistently and effectively defeat opponents, you must sequentially move through the OODA cycle whether you are aware of it or not. It is *a model that can be used to dissect compressed timeframes in a logical and sequential manner. All engagements [/B]whether they are air-to-air dogfights or an up close and personal, hand-to-hand confrontation, conform to this simple, powerful, and insightful model.

* edited


From; Got a Second?
Boyd's Cycle ... OODA Cycle
Written by Ken J. Good �Director, Surefire Institute



http://radio.weblogs.com/0107127/sto...Institute.html

This incorporate the idea of "the reactionary gap" or the time it takes to respond to an action. An example would be that it has been reported that it takes 1/5 of a second to react to something... while it takes 1/6 of a second (or less) to initiate a knife strike... Offense truly is the best defense.

So, yes, it's reaction vs. action and the mentality behind them that really make the case. That's what makes most "Self Defence" methodologies unrealistic.

For some reason I only get 1 of 5 responses sent to me from this forum...

That comment (tupelobjjdotcom: humm,,stick/knife vs a gun.... excuse me sir,,don't shoot me just yet,,let me get my knife out, or go look for a stick first.,,,,,you wont have it ready and you'll be dead before you even get your hand back out of your pocket. Better be learning to disarm by hand, or running.
) about not getting your weapon out is dead wrong! At close range with a weapon aimed point blank at a individual with a sheathed knife... I have seen some of the best operators in the world get a hard lesson on reaction speed when they were unable to shoot the individual (with a non-lethal round of course) before they cleared their sheath and the defenders weapon, delivering what would be a lethal strike successfully. (I am a Combatives SME at 3rd SFG... the instance here was a private Sayoc Kali seminar for instructors and students at the USAJFK Special Warfare Center and School. The poor fellow who thought he was fast was a SFAUC Instructor (Special Forces Advanced Urban Combat)). But, for the rank and file... yes, they would fail to act (obviously) as opposed to an individual (presumably the sort of individual posting to this forum) who is separated by one important trait... the ability to ACT rather than REACT. This transcends and applies to every range or mode of combat. It is crazy to prefer empty hand to a blade in a gun encounter... IMO

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain."

(I love that movie! lol)

[brokenelbow]

OODA Insights

Do tell....(?)

Tanto, One of the dirty secrets of OODA is that it works both ways and that we can suffer from what corrections officer Sargent Rory Miller calls the OO bounce. The author also has a couple of chapters in the Fighter's Fact Book 2 if you want to read more. His writing is also very clear and concise, so while I've learned some of this from another source Sgt Miller IMO does the best presentation of these insights for having a healthy OODA.

http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2006/01/ooda-insights.html

OODA Insights
Now the fun part. With good students there's a synergy that takes things you know and brings them out into the open, that makes words out of feeling and experience. You can share words, pass them on. Not so much with experience.

The OODA loop came up today, got explained, basically what the last entry was about.

Then there were the insights. Some of them I already put in the OODA intro entry because they fit so well. I'll refer to them again here.

1) People lock up on novel observations. If you observe something and can't tell what it is ( a giant carniverous tomato with tentacles or someone clearing his throat preparing to spit to open a combat) you can't orient to it, so you can't decide so you can't act. Someone commented that people are never brave (read decisive) in conditions of uncertainity. One of the goals of training must be to expose yourself to the widest variety of situations possible to prevent this.

2) You must be able to act with partial information. You will never have all the answers or know exactly what is going on. People who wait for too much information before acting get hurt. The speed of your OODA loop depends on your comfort level of information.

3) The person with a plan or an internal map of what is supposed to happen will have a hard time Orienting if the plan isn't followed. The attacker who has chosen a small female may have laid a detailed plan: he will grab her by the hair and when she screams he will slap her and if she continues to scream he will... If the actual events go more like 'he grabs her hair and his nose explodes in blood and pain' he will have a momentary freeze as he orients to the unexpected events.

4) Each action on your part is a new observation. The power in a barrage attack or a fast entry in a tactical situation is because the constant action constantly resets the opponent's OODA loop. Observe: "His fist is getting big" Orient: "He's hitting..." Observe: "His other fist is getting big" Orient: "It's a combo!" Observe: "My knee just collapsed" Orient: "He's kicking too!" The constant attack keeps the opponent bouncing between the first two steps, never Deciding or Acting.

5) (And this is wicked cool!) This can be defeated by a self-referencing stimulus!!! Barrages haven't worked on me. Chain punches haven't worked on me. The reason is that when my senses get overwhelmed, I shut down the source of the information. Too put it in OODA terms, if I feel myself caught in the OO bounce or sense it about to happen, I attack. The OO bounce has become an Observation in and of itself with a simple one choice orient ("I'm frozen") followed by a simple Decision: "Hit the bastard!" and a simple action- POW.

[darrianation]

To kind of mirror Tanto’s OODA…

As law abiding non-predator civilians in any criminal event it is highly likely you will be caught of guard and flat footed. We would all like to think we have the awareness to ferret out any potential ambush situations. The fact of the matter is no one can keep a focused awareness for long and I don’t care who you are.

So we go about life with a general awareness looking for patterns, many times subconsciously that would trigger a more focused attention. That guy with his back to the wall wearing sunglasses and a fanny pack who keeps looking in my direction surveying the immediate area. He has “prime positioning and his attention on me or my party makes me nervous. I keep my eye on him because his pattern of behavior (dress, positioning, attention, etc) has triggered a more focused attention in me.

Another scenario would be as you are driving down the road the neighborhood you are in or that spot over there would be a perfect place for an ambush and you notice characters near that location dressed suspiciously or are paying attention to you. This would trigger a heightened awareness and maybe you turn around or prepare yourself for an impending assault.

The threat is when you have identified someone paying attention to you and that attention is hostile in nature that is your threat.

If you were to boil it down to what is the most important it is the willingness to act without hesitation, I think that could mean acting by getting the hell out of dodge or by an aggressive all out preemptive attack. Once your mental trigger has been tripped it is time to “go” and go now.

I think folks in general wait to long, maybe it is an internal dialog “Is this really happening? Is he really doing what I think he’s doing?” Etc. Or maybe they think they can reason with the baddy and talk him out of it, which in the criminal assault situation rarely works.

If you have warned him to step back and he doesn’t, crossing the line you have drawn in the sand, it is “go-time”, period. Folks often get shot, stabbed, or sucker punched while they debate internally (with themselves) or with the perp’. I have learned (personally) to keep my trigger light.

If you are attacked by surprise such as in a sudden onset fighting situation (ambush) you better have a default sate to fall back on to mange the limbic short circuit that will keep you alive until you can get your offensive going. Your “immediate action drill” should be trained to an “automatic” response for just such situations.

Either way it becomes a drag race for the tactically dominant position.