JKD in Competition...

[Liberty]

I may be wrong, but one thing I do know from those streets - when you tone it down and turn your street science into sport you hurt the refllexes you trained for. You'd better train twice as hard as anyone else out there.You'll need it to make up for all those crucial moments where you find yourself having to hold back!

"Gung-Fu is gung-fu, not child's play!" - Bruce Lee

Dallas Ninjitsu vs JKD

Dallas Ninjitsu in training:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=olToOu9DwUc

Dallas Ninjitsu (cloth shin guards) vs JKD - 3 fights (in order)s:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l_tIcuWieqo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFObzABDaBk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AZuxzcGrFTI

No disrespect intended to all the JKD people who could wipe the floor with these guys.

[Ghost]

I may be wrong, but one thing I do know from those streets - when you tone it down and turn your street science into sport you hurt the refllexes you trained for. You'd better train twice as hard as anyone else out there.You'll need it to make up for all those crucial moments where you find yourself having to hold back!

"Gung-Fu is gung-fu, not child's play!" - Bruce Lee

Dallas Ninjitsu vs JKD

Dallas Ninjitsu in training:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=olToOu9DwUc

Dallas Ninjitsu (cloth shin guards) vs JKD - 3 fights (in order)s:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l_tIcuWieqo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFObzABDaBk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AZuxzcGrFTI

No disrespect intended to all the JKD people who could wipe the floor with these guys.

They were really awful mate.
I think its good to train as if it were a sport. You can still train the other stuff but there is no motivation like knowing the other guy is training like a nutter to knock you out. Regardless of special moves or any other crap people think they could have pulled that would have ended it sooner. Its usually the losing side that says they would have won if only they could use XYZ. No, you would have got knocked out anyway.

[Guest]

Hi Liberty,

I wouldn't worry too much about the need to prove that JKD can work in a competition. I believe everything in the arts has it's own purpose and arena. I started JKD, specifically with Sifu Paul, because I wanted to learn the best options to take care of myself in a worst case scenario. To me, personally, this is the real strength of the JKD I have experienced in that you learn to flow and adapt as the horror of real violence mutates - all ranges, with or without weapons, against one or more attacker, with or without rules. I have never proved my JKD in the ring, but I'm absolutely fine with that, I have never proven that a knife, a hammer, or a gun works in the ring either. Everything has it's own purpose and it's own arena.

I must agree with Ghost, its not a fair assumption to say that sports-specific training waters anything down. You cannot use rules or techniques that are "too violent" as an excuse why JKD is a more practical art than say Thai or Boxing. Thai Boxers and Boxers do very well outside the ring, and one of the real strengths of their art is that it has been pressure tested over hundreds of years. Yes, the training is sports-specific, but it has many core attributes that stand up superbly in the street. Traditional martial arts (and let me for a moment include JKD in that) tend to look at things like the UFC and hide behind the notion of rules, a cage, and a referee. I'm pretty sure that if Tito Ortiz, Randy Coture or Shaun Sherk showed up at most of these schools and said "sure, no problem, lets just hit the pavement".....there wouldn't be many takers.

I have been involved in encounters where my JKD training has probably saved my life through techniques and concepts I never would have been taught in the ring. That said, my Boxing has given me a level of attributes and a pressure testing in the ring that I never would have gained from just my JKD. Again, everything has it's own purpose and everything has it's own arena. I don't feel the need to prove either one stronger than the other, I'm happy with what each one gives me in it's own right, and if trained well - they only make eachother stronger.

[fire cobra]

Good post Michael.

[Liberty]

They were really awful mate.
I think its good to train as if it were a sport. You can still train the other stuff but there is no motivation like knowing the other guy is training like a nutter to knock you out. Regardless of special moves or any other crap people think they could have pulled that would have ended it sooner. Its usually the losing side that says they would have won if only they could use XYZ. No, you would have got knocked out anyway.

Again, "No disrespect intended to all the JKD people who could wipe the floor with these guys." I'm aware of how awful these guys were at their respective arts.

[Liberty]

Hi Liberty,

I wouldn't worry too much about the need to prove that JKD can work in a competition. I believe everything in the arts has it's own purpose and arena. I started JKD, specifically with Sifu Paul, because I wanted to learn the best options to take care of myself in a worst case scenario. To me, personally, this is the real strength of the JKD I have experienced in that you learn to flow and adapt as the horror of real violence mutates - all ranges, with or without weapons, against one or more attacker, with or without rules. I have never proved my JKD in the ring, but I'm absolutely fine with that, I have never proven that a knife, a hammer, or a gun works in the ring either. Everything has it's own purpose and it's own arena.

I must agree with Ghost, its not a fair assumption to say that sports-specific training waters anything down. You cannot use rules or techniques that are "too violent" as an excuse why JKD is a more practical art than say Thai or Boxing. Thai Boxers and Boxers do very well outside the ring, and one of the real strengths of their art is that it has been pressure tested over hundreds of years. Yes, the training is sports-specific, but it has many core attributes that stand up superbly in the street. Traditional martial arts (and let me for a moment include JKD in that) tend to look at things like the UFC and hide behind the notion of rules, a cage, and a referee. I'm pretty sure that if Tito Ortiz, Randy Coture or Shaun Sherk showed up at most of these schools and said "sure, no problem, lets just hit the pavement".....there wouldn't be many takers.

I have been involved in encounters where my JKD training has probably saved my life through techniques and concepts I never would have been taught in the ring. That said, my Boxing has given me a level of attributes and a pressure testing in the ring that I never would have gained from just my JKD. Again, everything has it's own purpose and everything has it's own arena. I don't feel the need to prove either one stronger than the other, I'm happy with what each one gives me in it's own right, and if trained well - they only make each other stronger.

Good post. Question: aren't Thai, Western boxing, jujitsu, judo, UFC, etc., sports that are all very realistic even with their rules? So that, as a result they can handle themselves in both?

Those are the guys real Ninjitsu, JKD fighters could perhaps test their skills against, yes. You're right you'd have to train for both - here, I have no rules, here I do.

I mean, that's been my experience. But I had to take some wacks before waking up to the fact that training for both is necessary.

And yes, way too many hide behind their "deadly technique" excuses.

[Tim McFatridge]

Liberty,

First off thanks for posting the videos. The competition is not exactly fair if you want to be honest about it. I know a few people from both sides on this video. The Dallas Ninjitsu school is owned by Ralph Severe who is an old JKD guy. He trained with Dan Inosanto and Larry Hartsell back in the day and then switched over and started doing Ninjitsu fulltime. He is also pretty good with stick and knife. The JKD group is headed up by Marco Hernandez (I believe) and he is certified under Ted Wong. The JKD guys on the video are limited by what they train. They are primarily "original" JKD (and I hate using that terminology... by saying that I mean they only train Ted Wong type Jun Fan. They do not train boxing like the Ninjitsu school does. They do not cross train like the other guys.

Ralph Severe is a hardcore martial artist and a survivalist. He is the big bald guy sitting on the mat by the door. Even though his guys did not look that impressive in way of technique or form I feel they still have the advantage as they cross train in different arts.

Tim

[Liberty]

Liberty,

First off thanks for posting the videos. The competition is not exactly fair if you want to be honest about it. I know a few people from both sides on this video. The Dallas Ninjitsu school is owned by Ralph Severe who is an old JKD guy. He trained with Dan Inosanto and Larry Hartsell back in the day and then switched over and started doing Ninjitsu fulltime. He is also pretty good with stick and knife. The JKD group is headed up by Marco Hernandez (I believe) and he is certified under Ted Wong. The JKD guys on the video are limited by what they train. They are primarily "original" JKD (and I hate using that terminology... by saying that I mean they only train Ted Wong type Jun Fan. They do not train boxing like the Ninjitsu school does. They do not cross train like the other guys.

Ralph Severe is a hardcore martial artist and a survivalist. He is the big bald guy sitting on the mat by the door. Even though his guys did not look that impressive in way of technique or form I feel they still have the advantage as they cross train in different arts.

Tim

That's why I posted the clip of how the Ninjitsu guys trained. They were cross training. At the same time both sides looked rather horrible at that sort of thing. How new are they at it?

As for the "Original" guys not training "boxing like," isn't Terri Tom's, with her her boxing, fencing mechanics, "Straight Lead" book, "Original"?

At the risk of setting off that debate, just curious about that? Then again, if these "JKD" guys are that, perhaps it would open the door for exploring that issue from that angle - effectiveness. Didn't Ron Balicki ("Concepts") do some competing? What about that "O" group in Europe (Germany?) that's done well in competition? Or is that EBMAS Wing Chun people?

I'll have to track it down.

Whoops - you sure it's Marco Hernadez? Take a look at this:

http://academyjkd.com/

http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/jkd/

[Guest]

Didn't Ron Balicki ("Concepts") do some competing?

He did mate, as did Erik Paulson, Rick Young, Neil McLeod, Chad Stahelski, Damon Caro and many people most commonly known as JKD practitioners. But we’ve been over this ground a number of times before, they became students of the discipline they competed in. Ron Balicki competed in Shooto, so he trained in and fought Shooto, just as Erik Paulson trained in and fought Shoot and MMA, Rick Young trained in and fought BJJ, Neil with Full Contact Stick etc etc.

Are these people proving JKD in competition? No, they are proving themselves.

[Liberty]

He did mate, as did Erik Paulson, Rick Young, Neil McLeod, Chad Stahelski, Damon Caro and many people most commonly known as JKD practitioners. But we’ve been over this ground a number of times before, they became students of the discipline they competed in. Ron Balicki competed in Shooto, so he trained in and fought Shooto, just as Erik Paulson trained in and fought Shoot and MMA, Rick Young trained in and fought BJJ, Neil with Full Contact Stick etc etc.

Are these people proving JKD in competition? No, they are proving themselves.

Wasn't aware of that, being I'm still rather new. Good point. Thanks.

[Tim McFatridge]

Liberty,

Yes I am sure it is Marco Hernandez. I checked out the link you posted to his page and read everything. He recently added the MMA and BJJ to his training. How recently I am not sure. From some of the people I have talked to in the past they had said they had jsut recently added the MMA stuff jsut prior to the fights with the Ninjitsu school. No disrespect to any of them. Marco used to advertise his school as the only true JKD school in Texas... which used to always make me ask the question really... then what is my school and all the other schools here in Texas?

Politics man...I hate them.

All good though... I have respect for them for stepping out on the mat and testing their skill and seeing where they are at.

Tim

[Liberty]

...The JKD group is headed up by Marco Hernandez (I believe) and he is certified under Ted Wong. The JKD guys on the video are limited by what they train. They are primarily "original" JKD (and I hate using that terminology... by saying that I mean they only train Ted Wong type Jun Fan. They do not train boxing like the Ninjitsu school does. They do not cross train like the other guys....

Not to start a war, but from what I understand about "Original's" supposed limitations coupled with statements made by most all the "original" students (first generation), about it's founder's martial prowess during his post Jack Man, pre-JKD period, I seriously doubt he would've had any trouble handling any of those guys on the clips using just his pre - Jeet Kune do stuff (Jun Fan or Original). I understand the same could be said for several of those original students skills in that period.

I mean, you're unwittingly implying that Lee, Glover, Hartsell, Mike Lee, Inosanto, et al would've had trouble with these guys if they (Lee, et al) were limited to dealing with them (guys in clips) with the just the skills of the so called "Original" period?

I don't mean any offense by that. I notice you always thank people for posting a clip or for one thing or another on a regular basis. So, I know you're cool. I'm just throwing this out there in light of your statemenet about their lack of preparation (supposed JKD guys on the clips) being due in part to their "Original" training.

[Ghost]

The guys in the clip are just inexperienced. Id place them at around 6 months of training.

[Guest]

Liberty.....hang in with me on this one, I'm not here just to challenge you.

I don't think Tim was implying at that all, especially bearing in mind some of the people you quoted are his teachers, but anyway he is perfectly capable of answering that himself.

A few points I would like to make:

1. I think this whole discussion on JKD (in whatever form) started on very shaky ground because, as pointed out by a number of people, the competitors in the clips you posted are very poor. They are certainly nowhere near a fair representation of JKD as I have experienced it.

2. You cannot compare art with individual. What Mr Lee, Mr Inosanto, Mr Hartsell, Mr Wong et al could achieve with their ability has no bearing on what an average Joe can do with JKD. Thats like a million guitar players around the world wondering why they don't sound like Stevie Ray Vaughan when they play the blues.

3. NOW Liberty, this one's going to shock you! I have to agree with you that siting "Original" or Jun Fan Gung Fu as less effective is, in my opinion, not necessarliy true. As I have mentioned on here before, I came from the Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Nucleus before I found Guro Inosanto, so my base is in Jun Fan. Jun Fan Kickboxing, especially latter day LA period, is a very good combative art. When I studied it we trained like a Boxing or Thai gym, lots of basics, lots of conditioning, and lots and lots of full contact sparring. It is a very smart, very effective and very combative system......its just not fairly represented by the individuals in those clips.

There you go fella

[Liberty]

The guys in the clip are just inexperienced. Id place them at around 6 months of training.

I'd have to agree.