JKD in Competition...

[Liberty]

Liberty.....hang in with me on this one, I'm not here just to challenge you.

I don't think Tim was implying at that all, especially bearing in mind some of the people you quoted are his teachers, but anyway he is perfectly capable of answering that himself.

A few points I would like to make:

1. I think this whole discussion on JKD (in whatever form) started on very shaky ground because, as pointed out by a number of people, the competitors in the clips you posted are very poor. They are certainly nowhere near a fair representation of JKD as I have experienced it.

2. You cannot compare art with individual. What Mr Lee, Mr Inosanto, Mr Hartsell, Mr Wong et al could achieve with their ability has no bearing on what an average Joe can do with JKD. Thats like a million guitar players around the world wondering why they don't sound like Stevie Ray Vaughan when they play the blues.

3. NOW Liberty, this one's going to shock you! I have to agree with you that siting "Original" or Jun Fan Gung Fu as less effective is, in my opinion, not necessarliy true. As I have mentioned on here before, I came from the Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Nucleus before I found Guro Inosanto, so my base is in Jun Fan. Jun Fan Kickboxing, especially latter day LA period, is a very good combative art. When I studied it we trained like a Boxing or Thai gym, lots of basics, lots of conditioning, and lots and lots of full contact sparring. It is a very smart, very effective and very combative system......its just not fairly represented by the individuals in those clips.

There you go fella

Mike, good to see you back, and hey, the man made the statement. Here it is for all to see. If that results in cause for examining it's intents and or merits, well then, here we are the "Jeet Kune Do Discussion Forum."

As for individual ability, I seem to recall Lee was supposedly a skinny kid with no martial skills whatsoever, none of the martial abilities he later developed through sound principles rigourously applied, etc....

To bad some "Originals" don't post here, though - it might shake out what's out there in terms of what they have found effective or not regarding this thing. No reason to believe all are political. You, for example, though you've stated you're "Concepts" preference, don't seem to be politcal, for example.

[Guest]

Thats because I realised a long time ago, that it doesn't exist, except in the minds of people who seek to financially gain from it (and ain't that just politics). The best way I can sum up Original vs Concepts from my experience, and why it's garbage, is as follows:

San Francisco, January 1997, the first Jun Fan JKD Nucleus weekend. I was very fortunate to be there. I saw some wonderful Jun Fan Gung Fu training from the likes of Mr Ted Wong, Mr Taky Kimura, Mr Chris Kent and the other members of the Nucleus. Great Jun Fan, great martial arts, a wonderful weekend.

Los Angeles, 2000, Inosanto Academy of Martial Arts. Guro Inosanto teaching a Jun Fan Gung Fu class. It was EXACTLY the same art I saw taught in San Francisco three years earlier. From that day until now all I have seen is Guro Dan stay true to the teachings of Mr Lee when he demonstrates the art of Jun Fan Gung Fu. The same Jun Fan Gung Fu that the (now Bruce Lee Educational Foundation) seek so adamantly to "save" and "preserve".

Jun Fan Gung Fu is Jun Fan Gung Fu.

The problem comes when you start to use the word JKD....but what is JKD if not a personal expression of the martial arts?? So Guro Dan has opened up a world of other arts for people to explore, to offer people the luxury of choice - he hasn't got anyone's arm up their back. Where as the likes of Mr Wong, Mr Poteet et al have decided that their JKD is what they found with Mr Lee, which is fine and to say again I loved this training. Its all good, its all great, we are very lucky to have both.

The people who say one is better than the other either feel the need to force their personal preferences on you, or are interested in taking your money. I was very sad when I heard that Mrs Linda Lee-Cadwell took Guro Inosanto to court and prevented him from using the name and logo of Jun Fan and JKD for commercial use. I have been lucky enough to meet Mrs Lee-Cadwell and she was very kind to me, so I will comment no further. All I will say is, it hasn't made so much as a tiny dent in Guro's continued popularity around the world........now ain't that a true example of "its only a name"

[Tim McFatridge]

I mean, you're unwittingly implying that Lee, Glover, Hartsell, Mike Lee, Inosanto, et al would've had trouble with these guys if they (Lee, et al) were limited to dealing with them (guys in clips) with the just the skills of the so called "Original" period?

I don't mean any offense by that. I notice you always thank people for posting a clip or for one thing or another on a regular basis. So, I know you're cool. I'm just throwing this out there in light of your statemenet about their lack of preparation (supposed JKD guys on the clips) being due in part to their "Original" training.

Actually just the opposite is true. I am not implying that at all. I trained with Sifu Larry Hartsell for 13 years know all to well his fighting ability as I was his demo partner on most of his visits to Texas and Oklahoma and a few times in Louisiana. I have trained with Guro Dan and Erik Paulson and many other JKD guys. What I am implying relates only to the guys on that video and no one else. I said they were at disadvantage going against the ninjitsu guys mainly because of the way they are use to training. They are not use to training against guys that really only have one motion or one type of footwork...and that is straight ahead. They are not use to training against guys that are going to come at them throwing wild punches and from out of no where.


That is not meant to disrespect them as we all have our moment of truth when we realize we need to change up the way we train in order to become better fighters. What I was trying to say...and failed to get across is that you have to train the way you want to fight. In order to use your Jun Fan /JKD and be effective with it then you have to train it against people who have different fighting backgrounds than you.

The same is true with any fighting art.

Again, I am not implying that any of the "Original" students that you mentioned nor any other student of JKD would have or should have a problem with those guys. My comments were directed solely at the guys on that video.

Tim

[Liberty]

Thats because I realised a long time ago, that it doesn't exist, except in the minds of people who seek to financially gain from it (and ain't that just politics). The best way I can sum up Original vs Concepts from my experience, and why it's garbage, is as follows:

San Francisco, January 1997, the first Jun Fan JKD Nucleus weekend. I was very fortunate to be there. I saw some wonderful Jun Fan Gung Fu training from the likes of Mr Ted Wong, Mr Taky Kimura, Mr Chris Kent and the other members of the Nucleus. Great Jun Fan, great martial arts, a wonderful weekend.

Los Angeles, 2000, Inosanto Academy of Martial Arts. Guro Inosanto teaching a Jun Fan Gung Fu class. It was EXACTLY the same art I saw taught in San Francisco three years earlier. From that day until now all I have seen is Guro Dan stay true to the teachings of Mr Lee when he demonstrates the art of Jun Fan Gung Fu. The same Jun Fan Gung Fu that the (now Bruce Lee Educational Foundation) seek so adamantly to "save" and "preserve".

Jun Fan Gung Fu is Jun Fan Gung Fu.

The problem comes when you start to use the word JKD....but what is JKD if not a personal expression of the martial arts?? So Guro Dan has opened up a world of other arts for people to explore, to offer people the luxury of choice - he hasn't got anyone's arm up their back. Where as the likes of Mr Wong, Mr Poteet et al have decided that their JKD is what they found with Mr Lee, which is fine and to say again I loved this training. Its all good, its all great, we are very lucky to have both.

The people who say one is better than the other either feel the need to force their personal preferences on you, or are interested in taking your money. I was very sad when I heard that Mrs Linda Lee-Cadwell took Guro Inosanto to court and prevented him from using the name and logo of Jun Fan and JKD for commercial use. I have been lucky enough to meet Mrs Lee-Cadwell and she was very kind to me, so I will comment no further. All I will say is, it hasn't made so much as a tiny dent in Guro's continued popularity around the world........now ain't that a true example of "its only a name"

Michael, do me a favor, reach over and give yourself a pat on the back. I doubt I'll read a more finer point of view on this issue. Thank you.

[Liberty]

Actually just the opposite is true. I am not implying that at all. I trained with Sifu Larry Hartsell for 13 years know all to well his fighting ability as I was his demo partner on most of his visits to Texas and Oklahoma and a few times in Louisiana. I have trained with Guro Dan and Erik Paulson and many other JKD guys. What I am implying relates only to the guys on that video and no one else. I said they were at disadvantage going against the ninjitsu guys mainly because of the way they are use to training. They are not use to training against guys that really only have one motion or one type of footwork...and that is straight ahead. They are not use to training against guys that are going to come at them throwing wild punches and from out of no where.


That is not meant to disrespect them as we all have our moment of truth when we realize we need to change up the way we train in order to become better fighters. What I was trying to say...and failed to get across is that you have to train the way you want to fight. In order to use your Jun Fan /JKD and be effective with it then you have to train it against people who have different fighting backgrounds than you.

The same is true with any fighting art.

Again, I am not implying that any of the "Original" students that you mentioned nor any other student of JKD would have or should have a problem with those guys. My comments were directed solely at the guys on that video.

Tim

Tim, on behalf of "Originals" everywhere, I accept your apology. Just kidding. Thanks for inadvertantly contributing to my having set this off. If not, I'd not have Wright's clear exposition on one aspect of it to refer others two from hereon out. End of story (yeah, right).

Ironicly, I was just over at someone's shop when someone walked in wearing a big black T-shirt with the words, "Original," splatterred across the front. I had to laugh...

[Tim McFatridge]

That is pretty funny...

No problem brother...happy to contribute in anyway I can.... hahaha

For the record... I share the same views as Michael does when it comes to Jun Fan / JKD.

[Happy Cat]

What is shown in the vidios is not Origonal JKD, at least not as I know it. First off, JKD can not be used in a ring like that. If it is, someone will get hurt. JKD is violent. JKD in a ring is rinky dink JKD.

Second, With JKD fighters, the fight should last seconds. Engage, destroy. bobbing around and around and around has no part in the play.

As my sifu says "JKD is gready. It is always saying My turn, my turn, my turn." The other guy shopuld not be given an oportunity for free action once the gap is closed.



-

[Liberty]

Afterthoughts:

This Original vs. Concepts argument, division, conflict, whatever, is not new. But it will, I believe, shed some interesting results, in the end.

It raged when Martin Luther broke away from the Roman Catholic Church centuries ago and gave rise to the Protestant Reformation – which eventually led to the founding of Plymouth Rock, in North America with all that has resulted in both good and bad, including that country’s eventual affect on Jeet Kune Do’s founder….

One conflict I’m greatly familiar with, from my own studies, holds many parallels with that within the world of Bruce Lee’s beloved Jeet Kune Do.

In the world of theatre a man named Stanislavski, who’d grown up as an actor began to try to codify the essence of the process of acting. Disgusted by classical acting conventions of the time, he began a journey towards finding the truth that would set actors free from those conventions. Over the years, he continued to refine his technique. To say he upset a few is an understatement.

After his death, and even during his lifetime, confusion, conflict, division and politics arouse over just what had been his final conclusions. Students-turned instructors from various periods of his research all claiming to have his final work.

Though he died still searching, because he lived to a ripe old age, he lived to see the day when one of his greatest students turned on him, claiming Stanislavski had lost sight of the path. Though Stanislavski always spoke fondly of this student, the two were never reconciled.

Years, prior to Stanislavski’s death, his theatre ensemble toured the U.S.A. Two of his students decided to immigrate to America. Stanislavski and company bid them well and returned home. These two went on to begin teaching that stage of his technique to North Americans, while Stanislavski, continuing his search for truth in acting, updated, changed, and revised. Changing his mind and so on, based on the latest research on human behavior as it became available.

Some years later, one of the students of these Stanislavski students, North American acting coach-icon, Lee Strasburg emerged to start his own studio, taking with him Stanislavski’s “Method,” with it's outdated techniques, as taught him by those two “original” Stanislavski students.

Some years after that, Stella Adler, a highly talented actress who had joined Strasburg’s Group Theatre began her own journey, when, unhappy with what she felt were techniques that held her back, she took a trip to Europe. While in France resting – she’d actually had some sort of a breakdown as a result of the strain of the politics of it all – she chanced upon Stanislavski, who was also vacationing in France. Who, upon hearing her plight, was shocked to hear his process had remained at the stage he’d long ago abandoned.

He consented to update her the remainder of his two weeks in France… When she returned back to the states, updated as to his latest advances in refining what he now called his “System,” Strasburg was furious, refusing to acknowledge he was wrong.

Adler broke off, began her own studio and a “political” war between Stanislavski’s “Method” (Strasburg) and Stanislavski’s “System” (Adler) waged on till their deaths and then some.

Till her death, Adler, via “Stanislavski’s System,” produced some of the greatest American actors in the history of film. Among them, Marlon Brando, James Dean, and Robert DeNiro. All claimed she taught the usable structure.

Strasburg continued in “Stanislavski’s Method,” until his own death. Some of his greatest actors being Paul Newman, Gene Hackman, and Al Pacino, and Dustin Hoffman

Though Brando, Dean and DeNiro also studied with Strasburg they always claimed Stella had the goods, not Strasburg…

Stanislavski died. Ever as restless as he’d been in his youth. Still searching... Years later a student from one of his own original studios arose. Second generation student, Sonia Moore. The only one to have taken up where Stanislavski had left off, though, as with Stella Adler before her, believing his last was the end of the process of refinement.

Moore has yet to produce anyone of merit – though she had Stanislavski’s last “word.” At least not anyone “known.” For neither she nor her more talented actors have chosen to pursue the limelight, preferring theatre to film.

Over the years, there have been other splits from teachers arising out of teachers. Most claiming they’ve found the missing piece of Stanislavski’s life-long sought for answers, or that he was wrong altogether. Most are brilliant people. Some acknowledge they only have a partial of the total, whatever that total may be.

One of them, Sanford Meisner, produced the great North American film actor, Robert Duvall. Others have greatly contributed to such talents as Merryl Streep, Denzel Washington, the amazing James Franco, Angelia Jolie, et al.

The Method and or System are no longer as hotly debated as they once were. Discussions happen but the ugliness is no longer present.

Stanislavski died in the late 1930’s. Strasburg in 1982. Adler in 1992. Moore died this past Friday. The last to have had any contact with any of the originals...

In the 50’s a man named Lawrence Parke, began to teach acting based on some 30 volumes* of notes left by Stanislavski. Few took notice. No splits, no politics – nada.

*Note: “Stanislavski had long resisted publishing anything about the actor’s art, fearing that print would turn experimental attitudes into dogma. He had obsessively kept personal notes on acting since he had been fourteen. But publication threatened to fix his ever-changing ideas into unalterable forms. Just as compulsively as he revised and perfected his System, did he alter and expand his writing. [To this day] All his texts are works in progress.”

Parke died a few years ago. His book, the first to actually move forward from where Stanislavski left off, decades earlier, and based on the structure Stanislavski had uncovered, is barely known of by anyone in theatre or film.

Parke’s adaptations are said to be capable of leaving, in the hands of the right talent, even the great, the one and only Robert DeNiro’s own astounding technique in the dust. Yet it continues to be largely ignored.

It is my personal belief that as with the brilliant results produced by Stanislavski’s various stages, due to his genius, highly skilled JKD students, instructors, fighters, and researchers will continue to arise out of both JKD “camps” due to Lee’s ingenious structure and process of discovery, coupled with their own unique talents.

That Wong, like Inosanto before him, will produce some outstanding martial artists. Michael Wright has alluded that as already the case. As having witnessed that result with his own eyes. Check out Wright’s video of him (Wright) training and its obvious he knows what he is talking about. I write this for any new person who should chance upon this post…

Art is art. JKD is not that difficult to understand from that view. I doubt, for example, that Lee’s spiritual mentors, Krishnamurti, Gibran, et al; those individuals who were not martial artists, would’ve had trouble understanding him.

From that element both camps will produce outstanding martial artists.

As a result, in the end, whatever the true reasons behind the split, or its length, Bruce Lee’s beautiful process of discovery will continue to live on. A process one does not even necessarily have to be some sort of bad dued of a figther, or martial artist, for that matter, to greatly benefit from.

For that, alone, I’d rather have a split than that Lee never graced this Earth to begin with.