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I can only speak for myself. That's the most anyone can do. Whether or not a style is still relevant is not so much dictated by theory on what's going on in the MA world today, but what you as an individual can do with it. I once met a Shotokan black belt who was a $@#&ing killing machine! Most people think that Shotokan is "no longer relevant" to the fight-game today, but it doesn't matter when his kick caves your ribs in and he leaves you with a busted up face. This isn't a plug for Shotokan, but rather it illustrates that the style takes back-seat to the individual. The only thing relevant is what you can do.
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if a guys says shotokan is not useful, he is not a fighter.
every technique is good when its in the hands of a tough mean guy who is smart. most of the "theory" people i know cant fight there way out of a paper bag. the only technique that is not useful is the one you dont use. shotokan fighters are some of the toughest guys around. but i seen shotokan fighter that suck, and i seen philippine martial art fighters that suck too. it doesnt matter what the style is only who is the guy that is using it.Comment
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It's weird to me that threads like this one go on. JKD is much like the shaolin concept of "build your own dragon"..but rather, JKD practitioners say "retain what is useful". Same concept.
to my understanding, JKD means, "try to find what works". I can't imagine how such a thought could become obsolete.Comment
i think no one is challanging the philosophy. what they are talking about is how he decides what works--most just take what they are taught and use it because they like it or they THINK it works, but dont really test it.
my problem with the video is what they teach. i didnt see any jeet kune do tape where the guy fights with someone to show you. they just say "this is muay thai, this is silat" etc. the guy throwing the techniques is moving even slower then the karate men in their practice many "realistic" people look down on. then, the guy always says, "bruce did this" or "bruce did that". why not say because "i found this works agaisnt this kind of fighter and that kinds of fighter. forget what bruce lee like. each fighter is different, and he is not bruce lee. but they say it like "if bruce lee did it, it works" they even do it here. now today we have people going back in time, even before bruce lee came up with what he die with, saying bruce lee didnt do silat or philippine arts, so we wont do it. does "original" mean better? what makes there jeet kune dos obsolete is that bruce lee is obsolete, hes dead. so you cant measure your fighting skills today by a dead man. if you do you might as well become a samurai or shoalin.
but then some people talk about how they train. 5,000 drills is equal to 100 forms. none of them improve your fighting better than fighting. but some people avoid fighting because there is not enough blood, its not on the streets, or some other excuse to not to fight. so they do drills. now they use the words "combat drills". "combat drills" is fighting for practice against a guys is going to take your head off, no matter what you do its not combat unless two people are doing his best. focus mitts hit back like a board, and the guy who swing his focus mitts is still less realistic than a real fist. all these things are useless compared to a match, even a light contact one. but when you mess up a drill, and you dont get a bloody nose or a bruise on your cheek, you are wasting your time with that exercise, like i said, just do tae bo.
the idea "use what is useful" is older than bruce lee. that is how we got japanese arts, philippine arts and chinese arts. when you let your fighting art changed with the times and you test your skills against a real man, you are keeping up. but when you worship the words of a man, and try to fight like him because you like his movies, then you just fell behind.
my problem with the video is what they teach. i didnt see any jeet kune do tape where the guy fights with someone to show you. they just say "this is muay thai, this is silat" etc. the guy throwing the techniques is moving even slower then the karate men in their practice many "realistic" people look down on. then, the guy always says, "bruce did this" or "bruce did that". why not say because "i found this works agaisnt this kind of fighter and that kinds of fighter. forget what bruce lee like. each fighter is different, and he is not bruce lee. but they say it like "if bruce lee did it, it works" they even do it here. now today we have people going back in time, even before bruce lee came up with what he die with, saying bruce lee didnt do silat or philippine arts, so we wont do it. does "original" mean better? what makes there jeet kune dos obsolete is that bruce lee is obsolete, hes dead. so you cant measure your fighting skills today by a dead man. if you do you might as well become a samurai or shoalin.
but then some people talk about how they train. 5,000 drills is equal to 100 forms. none of them improve your fighting better than fighting. but some people avoid fighting because there is not enough blood, its not on the streets, or some other excuse to not to fight. so they do drills. now they use the words "combat drills". "combat drills" is fighting for practice against a guys is going to take your head off, no matter what you do its not combat unless two people are doing his best. focus mitts hit back like a board, and the guy who swing his focus mitts is still less realistic than a real fist. all these things are useless compared to a match, even a light contact one. but when you mess up a drill, and you dont get a bloody nose or a bruise on your cheek, you are wasting your time with that exercise, like i said, just do tae bo.
the idea "use what is useful" is older than bruce lee. that is how we got japanese arts, philippine arts and chinese arts. when you let your fighting art changed with the times and you test your skills against a real man, you are keeping up. but when you worship the words of a man, and try to fight like him because you like his movies, then you just fell behind.
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I'm with you on all of that, kuntaw.
Speaking of bruises, I haven't been able to use my left hand without wincing for a week and a half, the big center knuckle still hasn't healed from stickfighting. right elbow, same condition. I can't set my elbow down on an armrest if it isn't padded. hope it's all better by sunday's workout.
Speaking of bruises, I haven't been able to use my left hand without wincing for a week and a half, the big center knuckle still hasn't healed from stickfighting. right elbow, same condition. I can't set my elbow down on an armrest if it isn't padded. hope it's all better by sunday's workout.
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Kuntawman, you are right
People are always obsessing over what Bruce Lee did, and try to do exactly what he did so they can be like him.
But I say if they really want to be like him, then you do scientific research and train scientifically, because that's how he did it. He didn't copy anybody, he studied other's systems, but he always tested everything to see which things worked better in fighting. When he was like bouncing around, did he say Im doing my Mohumed Ali drill, and when he was trapping did he say Im practicing my Wing Chun, or am I doing Kali when I pick up sticks? No, because thats not how he did things. If he was alive, he would be really interested in all the UFC type stuff and would study it and all that, because when he was alive, his JKD was changing every day, but people think that just because thats how he was doing it 30 years ago, thats how he would be doing it today if he was still alive. Who knows? Hes dead so we'll never know. But thats how a lot of JKD people seem to look at it.
Most people who say they study JKD really just want to learn Bruce Lee's Style. They go on about the philosophy, but don't really practice it. I used to be like that, but Ive sort of woken up to myself lately.
People are always obsessing over what Bruce Lee did, and try to do exactly what he did so they can be like him.
But I say if they really want to be like him, then you do scientific research and train scientifically, because that's how he did it. He didn't copy anybody, he studied other's systems, but he always tested everything to see which things worked better in fighting. When he was like bouncing around, did he say Im doing my Mohumed Ali drill, and when he was trapping did he say Im practicing my Wing Chun, or am I doing Kali when I pick up sticks? No, because thats not how he did things. If he was alive, he would be really interested in all the UFC type stuff and would study it and all that, because when he was alive, his JKD was changing every day, but people think that just because thats how he was doing it 30 years ago, thats how he would be doing it today if he was still alive. Who knows? Hes dead so we'll never know. But thats how a lot of JKD people seem to look at it.
Most people who say they study JKD really just want to learn Bruce Lee's Style. They go on about the philosophy, but don't really practice it. I used to be like that, but Ive sort of woken up to myself lately.
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Bruce Lee's ideas about martial arts apply to anyone. His specific techniques apply only to him. No one can take exactly what he did and use it. No one has the exact same attributes he did. The Jun Fan techniques of 1965-1972 are outdated and do not work well against the schooled fighters of today. Try that Pak Sao, Lop Sao without getting rushed. With time things evolve, including martial arts. Take his ideas and let them guide you. Don't be foolish enough to try and mimic the great Bruce Lee by duplicating and robotizing his physical movement patterns.
Over and Out - CoolDude
Over and Out - CoolDude
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my opinion of the debate....
First of all, I am not certified (yet) under Guro/Sifu Dan, I am working towards that goal as well as many others...
I read the posts with a mixed feeling... I agree on some points, but strongly disagree with others... Rather than trashing anyone on the forum, I choose to give my opinion and welcome all responses... One thing I am sure of is that we are all passionate about training... That is our common ground....
Another thread mentions a new set of videos, in which Guro Dan Inosanto again delivers an awesome video instruction series...
One of the segments, has Guro Dan talking about what JKD is and isn't once again.... To those of us in the inosanto lineage, we have heard Guro explain this many times... This however i believe is the best explaination I have heard from Guro...
He explained, that JKD is actually Bruce Lee's method of martial arts, i.e., Bruce Lee developed his martial art on what worked for him... basically, and guro dan included himself as well, he said that no-one could pull off some of what Sifu Bruce developed, because they were not blessed with his speed, timing, reflexes, etc.
What that illustrates, is what he explained next.... Anyone can say that they train JKD, no matter what arts they use to research from, HOWEVER, in order to train in Bruce Lee's JKD, they MUST begin with Jun Fan Gung Fu, then research other methods to create their own personal JKD..
The argument of what JKD is or isn't get stale after a while, but still we all have our opinions.... Guro Dan was there with Bruce Lee, as his BEST FRIEND... I would think that that would convince even the staunchest disbeliever that Guro Dan is the heir to JKD.
So basically, if you train in Jun Fan Gung Fu, then you choose to investigate and train in any other discipline, such as aikido, fencing, western boxing, shotokan, tai-chi, shaolin kung fu, judo, etc... you will be developing your JKD and keeping alive Sifu Lee's "art"...
If you look at one of the OJKD paractitioners in our midst, BIG Sean Madigan... He is actually doing just that... He admits to being very much from the original JKD camp.... As you see from his earlier post, he too investigates and trains in full contact stick fightiing as well... This is exactly the point....
We all train our own JKD... How many of us trained in other arts before coming to JKD...? I know I did, receiving 2 black belts in other arts and training in numerous seminars as well... This knowledge stays with me and makes my JKD specifically my own, based on my own training and experience...
Guro encourages us to train with other instructors and in other arts, so that we are more prepared...
In closing, Sifu Dan addresses the issue of JKD being obsolete, in one of the tapes in the new series, no. 5.. He explains that they trained in the 60s and 70s on grappling for example, the techniques were "uncontested" on the ground, the partner would tap out... As the years progressed, so di the quality of training and they saw the need for a more alive ground game, and as a result, searched out Shootwrestling, BJJ, sambo, etc.. where the ground game is definitely "contested".. This illustrates that JKD is definitely alive and not obsolete... Guro sees the need for growth and change to keep the art "alive"... We should all live by this example...
Respect to all,
Dave
First of all, I am not certified (yet) under Guro/Sifu Dan, I am working towards that goal as well as many others...
I read the posts with a mixed feeling... I agree on some points, but strongly disagree with others... Rather than trashing anyone on the forum, I choose to give my opinion and welcome all responses... One thing I am sure of is that we are all passionate about training... That is our common ground....
Another thread mentions a new set of videos, in which Guro Dan Inosanto again delivers an awesome video instruction series...
One of the segments, has Guro Dan talking about what JKD is and isn't once again.... To those of us in the inosanto lineage, we have heard Guro explain this many times... This however i believe is the best explaination I have heard from Guro...
He explained, that JKD is actually Bruce Lee's method of martial arts, i.e., Bruce Lee developed his martial art on what worked for him... basically, and guro dan included himself as well, he said that no-one could pull off some of what Sifu Bruce developed, because they were not blessed with his speed, timing, reflexes, etc.
What that illustrates, is what he explained next.... Anyone can say that they train JKD, no matter what arts they use to research from, HOWEVER, in order to train in Bruce Lee's JKD, they MUST begin with Jun Fan Gung Fu, then research other methods to create their own personal JKD..
The argument of what JKD is or isn't get stale after a while, but still we all have our opinions.... Guro Dan was there with Bruce Lee, as his BEST FRIEND... I would think that that would convince even the staunchest disbeliever that Guro Dan is the heir to JKD.
So basically, if you train in Jun Fan Gung Fu, then you choose to investigate and train in any other discipline, such as aikido, fencing, western boxing, shotokan, tai-chi, shaolin kung fu, judo, etc... you will be developing your JKD and keeping alive Sifu Lee's "art"...
If you look at one of the OJKD paractitioners in our midst, BIG Sean Madigan... He is actually doing just that... He admits to being very much from the original JKD camp.... As you see from his earlier post, he too investigates and trains in full contact stick fightiing as well... This is exactly the point....
We all train our own JKD... How many of us trained in other arts before coming to JKD...? I know I did, receiving 2 black belts in other arts and training in numerous seminars as well... This knowledge stays with me and makes my JKD specifically my own, based on my own training and experience...
Guro encourages us to train with other instructors and in other arts, so that we are more prepared...
In closing, Sifu Dan addresses the issue of JKD being obsolete, in one of the tapes in the new series, no. 5.. He explains that they trained in the 60s and 70s on grappling for example, the techniques were "uncontested" on the ground, the partner would tap out... As the years progressed, so di the quality of training and they saw the need for a more alive ground game, and as a result, searched out Shootwrestling, BJJ, sambo, etc.. where the ground game is definitely "contested".. This illustrates that JKD is definitely alive and not obsolete... Guro sees the need for growth and change to keep the art "alive"... We should all live by this example...
Respect to all,
Dave
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Excellent post. Could you elaborate on what you meand with Bruce Lee's JKD more? I don't think I quite understand. Is it an issue of lineage and/or one possible path to the JKD ideal?
thanks
thanks
Last edited by gungfuhero; 05-08-2001, 09:18 AM.
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Hyper Flying Turtle Strike
*snort*
*cough*
I'm going to have to agree with Monkey here. Saying that Dan Inosanto is keeping Lee's fighting methods a secret by only teaching Jun Fan Gung Fu and not the "advanced JKD" sounds like another Kung-Fu-Movie-Myth. Kung fu movies and the "secret histories" of traditional styles are full of stories where a certain student who was corrupt/incompetent was only taught basic maneuvers and not the unbeatable "secret techniques" that his master knew. So too did old masters used to claim that they couldn't use the True Secrets of their martial arts style or teach them to others because it was too dangerous.
Lee was researching different styles all the time, taking note of techniques he wanted to try out and incorporate into his personal style. But the idea that he was intentionally teaching his students techniques and methods which were changed to make them less effective is ridiculous. Wouldn't it go against everything he claimed to stand for? And if he refrained from imparting to his students knowledge that he knew was useful or deliberately taught them flawed techniques, wouldn't that make him a corrupt profiteering bastard?
Originally posted by strblast
One of Lee's friends, Hawkins Cheung reportedly stated that when he came to visit Lee's classes, he observed that Lee was teaching incompletely or differently from what he (Lee) was teaching before. He asked Lee about this as Lee said why should he be giving away techniques that he developed and discovered so that other people could learn it and beat him.
What Lee asked Inosanto not to do is teach other than JFJKD. Jun Fan Gung Fu or Jun Fan JKD is more or less the same thing. Sifu Inosanto was not allowed to teach more than this.
To call Dan Inosanto an opportunist is a lame remark. Because of his promises to Lee, he now only teaches JFJKD and not the "advance" JKD that Lee discovered. Why else would he be teaching Kali/Silat incorporated with JKD principles? He's researching his own JKD and imparting the knowledge to his students without breaking his promises to Lee.
One of Lee's friends, Hawkins Cheung reportedly stated that when he came to visit Lee's classes, he observed that Lee was teaching incompletely or differently from what he (Lee) was teaching before. He asked Lee about this as Lee said why should he be giving away techniques that he developed and discovered so that other people could learn it and beat him.
What Lee asked Inosanto not to do is teach other than JFJKD. Jun Fan Gung Fu or Jun Fan JKD is more or less the same thing. Sifu Inosanto was not allowed to teach more than this.
To call Dan Inosanto an opportunist is a lame remark. Because of his promises to Lee, he now only teaches JFJKD and not the "advance" JKD that Lee discovered. Why else would he be teaching Kali/Silat incorporated with JKD principles? He's researching his own JKD and imparting the knowledge to his students without breaking his promises to Lee.
*cough*
I'm going to have to agree with Monkey here. Saying that Dan Inosanto is keeping Lee's fighting methods a secret by only teaching Jun Fan Gung Fu and not the "advanced JKD" sounds like another Kung-Fu-Movie-Myth. Kung fu movies and the "secret histories" of traditional styles are full of stories where a certain student who was corrupt/incompetent was only taught basic maneuvers and not the unbeatable "secret techniques" that his master knew. So too did old masters used to claim that they couldn't use the True Secrets of their martial arts style or teach them to others because it was too dangerous.
Lee was researching different styles all the time, taking note of techniques he wanted to try out and incorporate into his personal style. But the idea that he was intentionally teaching his students techniques and methods which were changed to make them less effective is ridiculous. Wouldn't it go against everything he claimed to stand for? And if he refrained from imparting to his students knowledge that he knew was useful or deliberately taught them flawed techniques, wouldn't that make him a corrupt profiteering bastard?
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Here's a good question for you. Do you think that JKD has progressed more since Bruce's death that it would have had he lived? I ask this because with such a charasmatic leader alot of people just play follow the leader and blindly do what the great guro does. You see this a bit with Dan Inosanto. Although he does everything he can to discourage it, I know a few people who will do and accept what he gives them as gospel truth and not really test it. Imagine how much more this would have happened if Bruce were alive. I know the whole thing he was trying to preach was to find your own way but he still retained that contradictory role as guro or all knowing master to a certain extent. There are many people who to this day won't practice anything that Bruce did not. Bruces death left JKD unfinished, which is precisely where it should be! It is up to us to finish it and his death made that our only option.
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i think when you spoonfeed and baby a student in the martial art and you dont make him tough, he will grow up and worship good skill and knowldge. that is the case with many martial artist, they can get certified and black belts with no hard testing, no testing of his courage and strength, and he is not encourage to be comeptitive. i see in some schools where the students are tough guys, and they are working to beat the advance students (even the teacher), those students will be okay.
but the schools where the teaching is like grade school, where there is no competition between the levels or other schools or even classmates, and all they do for testing is demonstrate this and that, those students will be easily impress even when they are instructors themself.
here in california, kajukenbo is very popular. all the schools are tough. i see many of there black belters who do kata and everything else "nontraditional/combat experts/streetfighting survivalist" do and say to himself "shit that wont work on me". the only way you can prove it to him is to PROVE it ON him. this is because they earned his knowledge, and the only way he will agree with you is if you prove that your knowledge is better than him. i have some kajukenbo students, and i had to spar with some of them when i recuit them.
but for the guys who learned in a "karate for kids" school, or in a seminar trained guys school with the same seminar way of teaching, all they need is to see something neat, and they are convince that "this stuff is deadly/this man is deadly". sometimes he can read and article, and now he wants to study. these people have no real confidence because he didnt test himself so he knows he can kick somebody ass only in "concept", but he havent actually did it. so since his knowledge is simulated, you can simulate a technique to him and he will think its the real thing.
so i dont know how bruce lee teach his people, but if he fought with them and made them fight a lot, and gave little bits of information at a time, then jeet kune do would probably take over the martial arts business by now. but with so many people with jkd certificates who cant fight out there, only the unexperience people follow blind.
but the schools where the teaching is like grade school, where there is no competition between the levels or other schools or even classmates, and all they do for testing is demonstrate this and that, those students will be easily impress even when they are instructors themself.
here in california, kajukenbo is very popular. all the schools are tough. i see many of there black belters who do kata and everything else "nontraditional/combat experts/streetfighting survivalist" do and say to himself "shit that wont work on me". the only way you can prove it to him is to PROVE it ON him. this is because they earned his knowledge, and the only way he will agree with you is if you prove that your knowledge is better than him. i have some kajukenbo students, and i had to spar with some of them when i recuit them.
but for the guys who learned in a "karate for kids" school, or in a seminar trained guys school with the same seminar way of teaching, all they need is to see something neat, and they are convince that "this stuff is deadly/this man is deadly". sometimes he can read and article, and now he wants to study. these people have no real confidence because he didnt test himself so he knows he can kick somebody ass only in "concept", but he havent actually did it. so since his knowledge is simulated, you can simulate a technique to him and he will think its the real thing.
so i dont know how bruce lee teach his people, but if he fought with them and made them fight a lot, and gave little bits of information at a time, then jeet kune do would probably take over the martial arts business by now. but with so many people with jkd certificates who cant fight out there, only the unexperience people follow blind.
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kuntaoman - good post - martial artist need to experience combat before they can claim they know combat. My school has ridiculous competition between students. We have no ranks - its obvious who the advanced students are. I feel this is what gives our school its integrity. We spar every single class for at least an hour. We go home sore and contemplative. We learn our weaknesses as well as our strengths - this is the way I believe bruce intended MA's to be studied.
JFJKD is only obsolete if it is not being taught the right way. Unfortunetly, there is no easy way to learn MA - you have to follow the path of blood and sweat. Don't buy something that isn't real - dont get a false sense of security from a bogus instructor. Make sure your instructor is the real deal otherwise your waisting your time. There are a lot of people studying martial arts that are waisting there time.
JFJKD is only obsolete if it is not being taught the right way. Unfortunetly, there is no easy way to learn MA - you have to follow the path of blood and sweat. Don't buy something that isn't real - dont get a false sense of security from a bogus instructor. Make sure your instructor is the real deal otherwise your waisting your time. There are a lot of people studying martial arts that are waisting there time.
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