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jeet kune do wisdom inside traditional martial art

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#1

jeet kune do wisdom inside traditional martial art

one of the best things my jkd teacher taught me was that all martial arts contain all the answers. I just saw chad say something similar in the thai forum.

lots of us jkd/mm/fma/etc'ers often mention that we didn't like our tae kwon do or karate upbringings.. that our classroom experiences in those arts soured us, and even prepped us for recognizing the value of our eclectic styles. i'm one of those people as well.

my instructor would often hear me knock traditional arts, and point out that they contained my kali knowledge, just in a different form. I thought this was crap.

recently, i was doing some drills with triangle footwork. while i was drilling, i was standing on the female triangle. one foot was at the triangles point, the other was on it's right corner.

i was stepping to center with the right foot, so both feet are on the tip of the female triangle.. then i stepped back to the right corner of the male triangle.

i was stunned to realize that what i had just done was step backwards while in a tae kwon do ready/fighting stance.

for years i have touted what a bogus form of footwork this is, while talking about the wonders of fma/boxing/jkd footwork.

and here i was doing a damned ready stance again, whether i wanted to admit or not.

i find lots of things like this in traditional arts.. and therefore i try to keep in mind that there have to be good tae kwon do classes SOMEwhere.. hell, i even recently found out that some tai chi practitioners know how to fight. can you believe that? well, i never would have. it's amazing how a person can learn the correct movement, and still not have the foggiest idea how to use it...which is what most traditional classes seem to spawn..yet, sometimes you see the hidden meaning within the movement, it's application, and you're blown away that an art you learned and dropped 10 years ago had the answers right within it, if only you'd had a teacher who could have translated it.

anyone else find anything they wanted to mention? any thoughts at all?


dwayne
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  • #2
    I've heard of combative Tai Chi instructors and I've heard of JKD instructors that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. It just goes to show the old maxim is true, "it's not the style but the man". If you look at NHB fights you see fighters of all different "styles" yet they all use (for the most part) the same moves. The difference between a practitioner of muay thai, wrestling, or Jiu-jitsu in the ring will be minimal. It's less about styles and more about strategies. For example a boxer would use the strategy of staying on his feet and punching and a wrestler would want to take it to the ground and punch. It's not that they fight that differently, they just have different ways of going about it. Style is more about what you want to do in a fight (where can you end it most efficiently) and how are you going to go about it. With the above example of boxer vs. wrestler they both want to beat the other guy up, but the boxer can do it best (for whatever reason) on his feet, the wrestler on the ground.

    I don't know if I'm being too coherent but you asked for ANY thoughts at all so there you go. Good observation BTW quietanswer.

    [Edited by Evilution on 10-06-2000 at 07:03 PM]

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    • #3
      Studying JKD gave me a better understanding of some of the moves in the forms from my old karate class.

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        • #4
        well

        evilution: your response was plenty coherent, and i agree, everyone looks pretty similar when in an actual fight situation, as fighting is always fighting..always truth. I agree, that the strategies of each may be different.. i'd also say the philosophies are different..which is probably the same as saying the strategies are different..

        aku aku: what moves? howso? this is exactly what i mean.. i'm just curious.

        dwayne

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        • #5
          There is truth to combat that not martial arts can claim but the experience of combat. I'v done this as well, where I used to say, "Oh, that would never work", but I think the trick now is that, "It could work...if you make it work". Also, I used to say that the truth for you is the truth as it stands for you today. I also used to think that if you realized this you would be able to comunicate with yourself better in a fight. Than I realized that part of my "truth" was making sure the other guys "truth" wasn't sorking. So there are two truths that you have to deal with. Than last but not least, is the truth of the universe. Were you lucky, was he? Is the ground wet, dark, do you have weapons, does he, are you injured, is he stronger, bigger, etc., etc. Simple moves from Karate like the rising block can work with the live hand application and turned into a palis palis type of movement.

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          • #6

            quietanswer: The moves I was referring to are mostly different trapping moves. The moves were in the forms but the people weren't really aware of them or how to use them.

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            • #7
              Right up my alley...

              Would it surprise you to know that Gichin Funakoshi (Father [Founder] of [Shotokan] Karate) said ,"It has long been said that there is no first hand (sente) in Karate, and whether performing kata or kumite, the front fist is used for defense and the fist held to the back is used for offense. Consequently, immediately following (without a hairbreadth delay) the blocking of an opponent's attack with the front fist, the rear fist is used to destroy the opponent. If at this moment, there is even the slightest delay in the movement, one will be forced inescapably into the predicament of maintaining a defensive role. The Japanese phrase 'go no sen o toru' menas simply 'defense equals offense.' This should give an insight into the relationship between defense and offense. However, there are times, depending upon the moment, or adjusting to a changing situation, when the defensive hand becomes an offensive hand. This is called 'hente' (changing hands), and frequently in actual cases it is more effective than the orthodox use. The effective use of this technique will indicate one's technical level."

              Now! Does 'hente' remind you of anything that uses their front fist as the attacking hand and the rear hand as the defensive hand? Hmmmmmm!

              If you ever trained in Karate, have some fun, go back, and practice bunkai. Your old "classical stuff" that would never work has a lot of good stuff within the kata. It's a matter of awareness. Start applying what you know now to what you knew then. Better recognize (two snaps)!

              Peace

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                • #8
                i read some about funakoshi

                back when i was working towards my career and spending lots of time in Borders bookstore sipping tea and reading books. I liked what i read about him...i've always hated traditional karate.. i took an isshin ryu class long ago, and didn't feel i learned much for all the time and sweat. when i read about funakoshi, i began to wonder how his instruction might have been different..

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                • #9
                  Funakoshi...

                  Some of the neatest things about Funakoshi, other than his writing style, are how he praises his instructors, provides some history and insight, and does not deny the Chinese influence in his martial art training...all while speaking highly of Okinawa Te. Two books that are a must read are Karate-Do Kyohan and Karate-Do My Way of Life. The above quote is from the Karate-Do Kyohan book. You have to actually read the book and not just the pictures with captions. You'd be surprised how much Shotokan has lost in standard training over the years. If only my instructor would realize this...LOL!

                  Up front, to the untrained eye, just hands on hip punching and static "one step" sparring. Deep within, to the Karateka, much more than that. Just nod your head in agreement and move on.

                  "The best way to show someone nothing is to show them everything"

                  Oh, Getz! The trick is "It will work...if I let it!" I said the same thing once within earshot of my instructor and he corrected this kind of thinking for me - LOL! His way of making me take responsibilty for what works and what doesn't. "There's no such thing as a technique that doesn't work. It doesn't work because you lack the training to let it work."

                  Continuing with that in mind, I remember Paul Vunak saying something to the effect in his video series that you don't try to disarm (stick stuff) but disarm when it's there...or something like that. I can relate that to what I've been told.

                  Peace

                  [Edited by Bad Karma on 10-12-2000 at 11:04 PM]

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                  • #10
                    I dont like TKD anymore because of the BJJ and MMA forum. BUT ironically, my sparring instructor is notorious in toronto for getting into alot of fights. I guess its the person not the style that counts. The ring sports however are easier to learn and to utilize

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                    • #11
                      yup

                      I was in a judo seminar a few weeks ago with Phil Portman. I was there hoping he would cover takedowns a little. Instead somebody asked about the armbar and we spent the whole day on jujigatame. Any way he showed them in what he called matrices, something I've seen before in jkd. Then he works these matrices into "time saving training routines". Guess what they were... Flows, just like bjj and Inosanto fma.

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