JKD credentials

[peppi]

Here's a thought. So, maybe Bruce lee abandoned wing chun not because he thought it didn't work but because he wanted freedom to teach and practice without the elders questioning him.

I do like your unorthodox thinking very much! FYI my book is "Wing Chun:unusual discoveries behind the common belief", but I really dropped the JKD part - for good or bad. Linda Lee in "Bruce Lee: only the man" wrote her husband saw the limitations after the fight with Wong Jack Man. There are also different views about the fight itself. In one interview Boztepe even stated Bruce realized he will never be number one in wing chun, so he took a different path. Who knows for sure. But I do think JKD as being taught today is one of the most practical modern systems that is definitely worth trying. And this book "Jeet Kune Do: The Arsenal of Self-Expression" by Teri Tom has some really cool reviews by customers at amazon, it looks promising for something new.

[Justthefacts]

Something Old

Peppi: A few thoughts...

"In one interview Boztepe even stated Bruce realized he will never be number one in wing chun, so he took a different path."

The original sources of this information were Seattle Era students Jesse Glover and James DeMile. Bruce Lee needed to modify his Wing Chun structure due to the monsters that he had to face on a consistent basis. James Demile was 225 pounds, Ed Hart was 240 pounds, Leroy Garcia and Doug Palmer were 210 pounds each, and a teenage Patrick Strong was close to 200 pounds. When Bruce Lee visited Yip Man in 1970, he sparred with several of Yip Man's students.

Book: Bruce Lee The Incomparable Fighter

Page: 78

Bruce convinced the old sifu that the best way to illustrate his art was to spar with his students. When the old man consented, Bruce eagerly moved to the center of the room as the old man waved his hand, ordering his pupils to form a single line. Then he instructed the lead student to step out to face Bruce. "The guy was so baffled by my moves," Bruce said. "I kept moving in and out, letting go kicks and punches, never gave him a chance to recover his balance. I guess he got so frustrated because every blow I let go would have hit him if I didn't control it. JKD is too fast for Wing Chun. The next guy got just as frustrated," Bruce continued, "because I kept throwing fakes and he kept biting. Once he got suckered and almost fell on his face. I didn't even touch him."

"Who knows for sure. But I do think JKD as being taught today is one of the most practical modern systems that is definitely worth trying."

I agree.

"And this book "Jeet Kune Do: The Arsenal of Self-Expression" by Teri Tom has some really cool reviews by customers at amazon, it looks promising for something new."

Unfortunately, rave reviews at Amazon are a dime a dozen and there is nothing new about Teri Tom's new book. Tom continues to bash the Wing Chun aspects of JKD and the practice of JKD concepts. She is an arrogant little thing and she doesn't have the skins on the wall to define what JKD is or isn't. As I've stated in prior posts, her research into the Wing Chun aspects of JKD is slim and Slim left town. The facts are simply not on her side.

[Wi Kali Group]

On Terri Tom. I've skimmed the book and plan on reading it. But It "Seems to me" that she is a product of her Sifu self imposed limits to only teach what Bruce taught him. Taking Dan & Ted at their words. It seems to me that Ted was probably no good at wing chun. So like Dan has said Bruce focused on his strong points which were Jun Fan Kickboxing.

Their is nothing wrong with this. But to think that what Bruce manage to expose Ted to in sparring session is the whole sum of JKD is naive at best.

We have the same thing going on now. A group of guys took some training that has been around before they started training. They slapped a slogan on it (aliveness). And now spend all their time trashing anyone who differs from their opinion (yes its an opinion).

The fact is like aliveness the limited training from Bruce that Ted teaches may be fine for some. But if you have someone like Sifu Vunak, Sifu Tackett or some of the Dog Brother's pack. Who have the ability to do so much more either as a fighter or a Sifu. It's a waste of talent.

Ted (and his students) would do a better service to their students to give them a good exposure to their art. Then like Dan (and most of the concepts family) encourage them to explore what else is out their.

But just like the alive guys if people explored what else is out their they would quickly learn the limits of OJKD or aliveness and might move on.

Going off on a tangent to cut down on the crayon based replies from the alive camp. I've explored this quite a bit by what is on line. The only good people (to come out of the camp I'm talking about) didn't really get good till they moved on to better MMA camps. So it fits with my opinion that they find out this "aliveness" only get you so far.

They had one girl from England I think who trained at an alive gym. She finally made it to a big (televised I think) mma fight. It was against a girl from Nevada. I don't know why they call it alive training. The fight looked like a snuff film.

Tangent over

Now the thing with the aliveness or the OJKD camps is this. Both could serve you as a good base. OJKD even as limited as it is by what bruce taught a few people (he didn't feel were qualified instructors). It would give you a good base on Jun Fan Kickboxing. This would make an excellent if incomplete base for self defense.

The alive guys would give you a good base on sport fighting (sorry in most cases not self defense. But their may be exceptions.). They stress boxing, kickboxing (MT) & Jits & rolling. All of them even as sport fighting make a great base for self defense.

The real problem is with OJKD you still have to expand on the incomplete training you get from that camp. And with the alive guys you have to explore it. Find what they have that you can use and either expand on it or discard the trash. Either they have nothing that is trash (making it incomplete for at least 50-80% of people looking to train. Be honest everyone is different with different needs in training & fighting). Or they have alot that may be not suited for everyone.

[Justthefacts]

Totality

WKG: There were 3 separate periods of Bruce Lee's art from 1959-1973. The Seattle period, the Oakland period, and the L.A./Chinatown period. That is a vast curriculum, yet most JKD instructors limit the totality of the art by choosing the curriculum from one time period. In most cases, they choose the L.A./Chinatown period and go from there. Despite Dan Inosanto's vast experience, he was not a student during the Seattle period and he was not present during the first year of the Oakland period. As a matter of fact, Sifu Inosanto had little contact with the actual classes taught inside James Lee's garage. In your opinion, why have most JKD instructors ignored the totality of Bruce Lee's curriculum? Couldn't an argument be made that there is much to gain by embracing ALL of Bruce Lee's teachings? Ironically, the Seattle and Oakland periods produced many more bad ass dudes than the L.A./Chinatown period. In the presence of Ted Wong, Bruce Lee told James Lee that Bob Bremer, Dan Lee, and Larry Hartsell were the only guys from his Chinatown school who could fight whereas James Lee's garage was "full of good fighters."

[Wi Kali Group]

JTF:
Some clarification. Dan was the only one Bruce made an instructor in JKD. So on that basis for me he is the final authority on JKD for me. Everyone else has to come to that decision for themselves.

Bruce only made 3 people instructors. Dan, Kimura & James Lee.

Now having said that if I gave the impression that any of Bruce's other students have nothing of value to offer. That was not my intention. Whether they became instructors under Dan, Kimura (James Lee made no instructors) or are just teaching what they learned as students I'm sure it has value.

I'm just saying that what they have to offer is not the totality of JKD. I've never seen Dan claim to know everything. Unlike many of Bruce's other students Dan & Larry expanded their knowledge. And encouraged their students to expand theirs.

Something I heard Dan say at a seminar years ago. It was about some of his Kali & Escrima instructors. He had instructors who could kick his butt but he couldn't learn anything from them. Then he had instructors he was sure he could beat up that taught him so much.

Why do so many instructors ignore the totality of Bruce's curriculum? I don't know but can guess. Either they didn't learn it. Don't like it/can't do it. Or it is not their strong suit. So many schools seem to use the JKD/Kali credentials to attract students but are really a MMA factory. They teach 99% MT, Jits & boxing with about 1% of Kali or JKD tossed in. To me it seems a bit dishonest.

I'll be honest my first seminar was Tim Tackett back in 88. My first exposure to JKD was from Sifu Vunak. So in my ignorance at Tim's seminar I have to admit I was not impressed. A few years later as I started to loose my ignorance (I said started to ) I reassessed my opinion on the drills that Sifu Tim taught us. They were drills that Tim said they did at Bruce's school and they were great. And I wasted 2 years not doing to much with them.

I'll be honest when I look at an instructor I don't care if they can fight. I only care what they can teach me. And on that level I would say Dan is the instructor I'll value the most. Tim Tackett I think would fit in that category. I think the thing that makes Tim better than some other Bruce students is instead of clinging to what Bruce taught him he augmented it with practical info from people like Bert Poe.

That is all I was trying to get at in my last post. I was not trying to bash Ted Wong or any of the OJKD gang. Just that their is more out there than most of them offer and you should check it out.

[Justthefacts]

Thanks

WKG: Thanks for the response.

"I'm just saying that what they have to offer is not the totality of JKD. I've never seen Dan claim to know everything. Unlike many of Bruce's other students Dan & Larry expanded their knowledge. And encouraged their students to expand theirs."

Excellent point. I will say that Seattle Era student Patrick Strong has embraced many of the JKD techniques into his own personal fighting method.

"Why do so many instructors ignore the totality of Bruce's curriculum? I don't know but can guess. Either they didn't learn it. Don't like it/can't do it. Or it is not their strong suit. So many schools seem to use the JKD/Kali credentials to attract students but are really a MMA factory. They teach 99% MT, Jits & boxing with about 1% of Kali or JKD tossed in. To me it seems a bit dishonest."

I agree.

"I'll be honest when I look at an instructor I don't care if they can fight. I only care what they can teach me. And on that level I would say Dan is the instructor I'll value the most. Tim Tackett I think would fit in that category. I think the thing that makes Tim better than some other Bruce students is instead of clinging to what Bruce taught him he augmented it with practical info from people like Bert Poe."

Unfortunately, you hear so much crap about how JKD is no longer relevant or that it doesn't work in a real fight, that you need to remind these knuckle-draggers that many of Bruce Lee's students were legitimate tough guys.

[fire cobra]

Small point in the discussion I know but the Aliveness group spoken about does not practice good Muay Thai as far as I have seen.

[Aikia]

Wi Kali Group
You said "JTF:
Some clarification. Dan was the only one Bruce made an instructor in JKD. So on that basis for me he is the final authority on JKD for me. Everyone else has to come to that decision for themselves.

Bruce only made 3 people instructors. Dan, Kimura & James Lee."

Is this something you heard or read? I read in John Little's book that Dan was a "teaching assistant".
I also read that it is likely that the levels that Bruce Lee gave out referred to years of training in JKD.

I have also read the Taky Kimura and James lee were also teaching assistants and Dan was the junior of the three. So how do you justify that Dan was the only instructor?
Not questing Dan's seniority or teaching skill. Just I have heard that said but i have never seen a published image of a certificate that says "instructor", you know what i mean?

[Kvntu]

Interesting point Aikia. I have always been told that you had to be at least a level 3 in JKD when Bruce was teaching to be an instructor. No one has disputed this so I supposed I have just accepted that fact. Dan Inosanto is the only person alive with a level 3 certification in JKD from Bruce Lee. Dan has really proven himself to be a very honest person by keeping his word to Bruce and not selling out. Linda Lee herself mentioned that Dan could have made a ton of money if he had been willing to exploit JKD for profit, but he chose not to do so. He kept his promise to Bruce Lee and is a man of his word. I am more than willing to believe him when he states that he alone was give the authority to teach JKD form Bruce Lee.

[Aikia]

I have always been told that you had to be at least a level 3 in JKD when Bruce was teaching to be an instructor. No one has disputed this so I supposed I have just accepted that fact. Dan Inosanto is the only person alive with a level 3 certification in JKD from Bruce Lee. Dan has really proven himself to be a very honest person by keeping his word to Bruce and not selling out. Linda Lee herself mentioned that Dan could have made a ton of money if he had been willing to exploit JKD for profit, but he chose not to do so. He kept his promise to Bruce Lee and is a man of his word. I am more than willing to believe him when he states that he alone was give the authority to teach JKD form Bruce Lee.

I have heard that too but none of the other original Bruce Lee students have confirmed that concept. I had heard that you moved up a level each year. JKD was created in 1967 and then Bruce Lee disbanded the school in January 1970. So it makes sense that he could have got level three in three years. But then ted Wong was level 2 and he was with Bruce Lee from 1968(?) through 1970.One of the OBLS received a level 1.5.
Here's another question. If Bruce Lee stopped teaching JKD in 1970 why would he 'certify' anyone as an instructor? What would the instructor teach since Lee didn't want anyone to propagate jeet kune do?

[Kvntu]

Yes, I havent heard of any of the other original students confirming that about level 3 being the minimum level to teach JKD, but I also havent heard them deny it. I certainly wouldnt expect the ones that are actively creating their own JKD organizations to admit to that. I guess if we decide that its not true then we are faced with one of 2 facts. Dan is either telling a lie or he misunderstood. I am not comfortable with either one of those ideas and I cant believe anyone that has spent any time with Dan would either. Perhaps JTF can shed some light on the level 3 requirement being documented as a minimum requirement by Bruce Lee to teach JKD?

[Aikia]

Bottom line is that I can't ever remember reading something in which Dan Inosanto himself states that "Bruce lee promoted me to the instructor level which Bruce Lee called level 3."
I believe that Dan was the official teaching assistant ( as John little describes him) at the Chinatown school. Other OBLS have confirmed that Dan led the class in the drills that BL taught them. This sounds more like the class leader/teaching assistant that John Little describes. The other students have stated that Dan led the class in the drills when Bruce wasn't there ( which may have been most of the time)
Not to take anything away from the outstanding contributions that Mr.I. has made to JKD but it seems like more of stretch to say that Bruce created a distinction between student and teacher and he certified Dan with a certificate stating that he had been promoted to "Certified Instructor of JKD".
Sounds like long after BL died they decided that Dan was the "teacher"; Dan had a level 3 certificate; therefore Dan must be the only "certified" instructor of JKD???
The logic just isn't there. And the "Certified Instructor" title just isn't on the certificate.
Or at least i have never seen a copy and I have seen Larry hartsell's and ted Wong's certificates on the internet

[Kvntu]

On the cover of the January 1997 issue of Black Belt magazine Dan Inosanto is quoted saying “ I alone have been given the right by Bruce Lee to teach his art.” The art he was referring to is JKD. The article inside entitled “Dan Inosanto Puts His Fist Down” and it’s a Q & A with photo copies of his certification from Bruce. He makes it very clear what his position was and how Bruce entrusted JKD to him. Well, unless he is lying or misquoted, either I doubt greatly. I always felt John Little was watering down Inosanto’s position because Little was promoting the JKD Nucleus and the original JKD movement. Little being a major player in the OJKD movement is well known so I suspect a little bias.

[Wi Kali Group]

The sources of my info come from many seminars from students of Bruce (Dan & Larry) and various students of Dan. You can find info on a Wikipedia page. Also Dan has a set of DVD's for sale on his web site. Aside from being a great source of info for student and sifu alike. They have interviews of Dan talking about various subjects.

The info I have on the teaching and rank comes mostly from the Wikipedia page.

Dan was given a level 3 certificate in all three areas.

1. Chinese Gung Fu (What ever they called the modified wing chun I think)
2. Jun Fan Gung Fu (What most people teach and call JKD IMHO)
3. JKD (Jeet Kune Do)

Taky Kimura was given a level 5 in Jun Fan Gung Fu (I don't know about JKD or CGF other than he didn't make level 3 in either). Dan confirms this on his DVD set by referring that in Jun Fan Taky was his senior.

James Lee was given a level 3 in Jun Fan Gung Gu (Again I don't know about JKD or CGF other than they didn't receive level 3).

In the DVD series Dan talks about how at the school he was at Bruce told Dan "You are the Sifu here". He said Bruce took the role of Sigung.

He talks about what Bruce told on teaching after Bruce was gone. That Dan was told to keep the class size small and quality high. He explains that when people around the world were teaching karate and calling it JKD that he then started teaching it openly.

On the Wikipedia page they talk about how after Bruce's death Dan promoted some of Bruce's other students to instructor level. Some even received left over certificates signed by Bruce. They mention that Ted Wong received his in such a way.

Now the students of Bruce who either were never certified or received theirs from Dan probably don't want to advertise about not being certified instructors or getting it under Dan. They might have a financial interest in letting people stay in the dark.

I mean if you did receive you rank from Dan not Bruce wouldn't that make you a 2nd generation instructor. The OJKD guys seem very picky on the genealogy. You hear their students making a big deal on learning from 1st generation students of bruce vs 2nd or 3rd generation. Some go so far as to claim 2nd and 3rd have no right to call their stuff JKD.

Well if that's so Dan is the only one (by their standard) that can call what he does JKD. And he doesn't make that claim.

[Aikia]

WI Kali Group,
Thanks for sharing that information. I had been reading information from another JKD forum. They are the polar opposite. I read that Mr. Inisanto's certificates were all dated on the same day and that Bruce Lee personally gave out the certificates to Ted Wong. Both sides agree that Dan had access to the certificates that were already signed by Bruce Lee.
But the most telling evidence is that the Bruce Lee family recognize Ted Wong as the authority on jeet kune do since Dan Inosanto created the JKD concepts method in the mid-late 1970's and that became the version of jeet kune do many people have learned.
In this latest Teri Tom book she also supports the idea that Bruce Lee taught jeet kune do as a few skills performed many ways.
Interesting how the two sides are so far apart.

How does an art with out boundaries recognize rank or "levels".
How do you know when you are qualified to teach no way as way?