Skeptical about chain punching...

[Underdog]

During a private lesson (6 hours...!) I was introduced to elbow distructions, shuffle groin kicks, redirecting jabs and crosses, did knife sparring (with aluminium knives...I'm pretty much covered in bruises right now...) and CHAIN PUNCHING.

Weeeell....I have to say, my instructor explained chain punching to me as "a method to shove an opponent with multiple strikes to the midsection in order to unbalance him allowing the clinch distance".

However, I'm not sold on chain punches. They don't use bodyweight, and also the left me pretty much uncovered doing them...anyone had explanations on them? Maybe articles on the net?

thanks!

[MikeJKD]

Chain Punching, as it was taught to me, wasn't ever aimed at the midsection. That sounds like a god-awful idea. I have used them to great effect however in both sparring and barfights when aimed at the face of an opponent who is off balance or in pain. Check out Vunak's stuff, especially his straight blast tape and his Headbutts, Knees and Elbows tapes for a very clear and solid foundation.

Bahala Na,
Mike

[Holdfast]

We work chain punches, but they don't work unless you go to the face and you have to literally try to take their head off or shove your fists down their throat or it won't work.

[filippo]

Hi my friends!

Straight blast is a great method for intercepting your opponent or for closing the distance!
You have to do it with right timing and in a right way: it's a great weapon but if you don't use it correctly probably you will be in troubles!
the traditional way of doing it (wing chun) is too static and too difficult to apply against an alive opponent; in JKD Bruce Lee changed the base of mouvements and the product is a jik chung choi used running versus the opponent to apply more pression on him.
Do it well and train a lot timig because during this action you have no defense for example against hooks, consider the ideas of center line, applying good pression and correct timing!

In JKD Unlimited we have other ways to apply the straight blast. Sifu Burton used a lot the boxing blast: it is something like jab-cross continuos applying a correct body mouvements twisting the shoulder. In that way you are more covered, you have structure of a boxer and give more pression and power against your opponent!!! VERY POWERFULL!!!!!!!

Before training straight blast, i think it's a good idea to put a good helmet on and receive it from your partner to feel how your opponet has to feel when you apply the blast: NO WAY TO GO OUT!

Underdog! I translated a good article of Sifu Burton about Straight Blast; you can find it on SPHINX MAGAZINE - number of July/August 2001....

Hi !!!

[Ryu (JKD?)]

I never did it to the midsection....but to be honest, Underdog, even when doing it to the face, I feel that against a good fighter it can get you into trouble if you're not doing it really really well.
I know for a fact that people can and have used the straight blast effectively (look at MikeJKD) But for me, I have been suspect of it too. I don't feel it does enough damage, so I'm trying to find a way to really add damaging power to it.
I also have sparred it quite a bit, and I don't feel that it causes people to "run backwards" all the time either...sometimes you can even seem to be "running in place" with the guy covering up and grabbing you.
Mike, how have you pulled it off? What type of blast did you do?

I'm still seeing what I can do with it. I'm working on a strategy also where you can clinch with a guy, slam him on the ground, and attack him with stomps, punches, etc. while staying on your feet. I've been sparring it a bit, and it seems effective so far.

But I do want to get ideas about the blast. Let's hear some.

Ryu

[bjjboulder]

watch that takedown

The theory is that you put the guy in a moment of temporary stupidity and mental unclarity by using a stophit or a destruction of some kind. Problem is..that is very hard to do..VERY HARD!

Sure you might "get" the stophit or the destruction technically but what happens when it just doesnt' turning them into a drooling vegetable for even a moment. HOW DO YOU KNOW? You throw that thai kick and feel land and it makes a good "thwap" ...In order to take advantage of the moment you have to start sprinting NOW and firing chain punches at his face closing the gap. Only OOPS>>the stopkick didn't have the effect you thought it did and now you are looking like a total stooge running at this guy flailing your hands high in the air, while a sly smile spreads across your opponents face and he calmy changes level..(which you don't see because you are flailing punches in front of your face obstructing your vision)...and drives his shoulder into your groin, bends you over and slams your into the ground while already setting up the kneebar that will end your straightblasting days for a while.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Well I don't do the blast that often (like I said, I'm inclined not to like it as much as you guys...but that could change), but even if I did do the blast, and saw that sly smile and level change, and felt him take me to the ground for that awesome leg lock, I'd probably pull him into guard, work off some elbows to the head while keeping him close to me, and when he pulls away and tries to start punching back, I'd throw hips forward, control his shoulder, and sweep him over to get into mount. Then I'd rain punches down, and if I feel he's better than me on the ground I'll get off the mount, and get back to my feet. Another scenario would be him changing levels and grabbing me, but I throw my hips back to break his grip, get the arm over and under position, and throw him with either uchi mata, ushiro goshi, or your favorite and mine, ura nage.
OR I could catch that armbar from the ground as he took me down, and break it off hopefully.....just to see the look on his face when he suddenly realized that..
"Oh shit! I had no idea that these guys spend so much time with BJJ and grappling!!!"

LOL

Ryu

[bjjboulder]

my point exactly

Sounds like you have some very basic ideas about how to fight from the guard ryu. But you have just proved my point completely. You'll get taken down trying to straight blast! And its a damn good thing that you've put some time into your ground game. Of course, if you are gonna bet on your ground game to save you you better hope that you are able to pull him into guard and his takedown doesn't land you in sidecontrol...and if you are able to get guard...hope he doesn't know how to pass.

On the other hand if your gonna defend the danger of straightblasting with the fact that you have put time into groundfighting..why risk being on the bottom and possibly slammed hard and go for the takedown yourself and start those raining punches from mount right away?

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Honestly I think you're trolling
But I do agree with you (as much as it pains me hahaha)

I don't like blasting, because I don't feel it's that effective for me.
What I posted was just a scenario to explain that JKD people are not at a loss on the ground. JKD should be like NHB to some extent in my opinion.
Now if you're asking me for my personal strategy on fighting, it doesn't include the blast.
If I can't knock the guy out with boxing, I'll clinch, knee, headbutt, and slam him with a judo throw. If I follow to the ground, I ALWAYS want to be on top, so I'll pound from the mount, or pin him down with kamishiho if it's not too serious.
If it's a serious thing I will slam him to the ground, but I won't follow him there. I'll remain on my feet and pound him with foot stomps, kicks, elbows, and punches.
Very similar to how Ray Cooper and JR Palmer used to fight in SuperBrawl....although I'm not as flailing as JR haha.

Remember that I'm prodominently a grappler
However there's better grapplers out there, so I want a different kind of game plan to end things quickly.

Take care,
and keep training.

Ryu

[J.K.]

"I'm not sold on chain punches. They don't use bodyweight, and also the left me pretty much uncovered doing them."

Well, you are wrong about not using body wieght - Power comes from using your body insted of just your arms. If you are just using your arms - you still do not know how to straight blast. Straight blast should incorporate the whole body - not just the arms. Also, forward pressure is also key and will add to the impact of your punch.

Any offensive attack will leave you valunerable to a counter if you do it at the wrong time. Straight blast are just another tool to add to your collection.

You need to study the movement and develop speed and power. Granted, SB are not as powerful as some other strikes, but to say they dont incorporate the whole body is inaccurate.

"I don't feel it does enough damage, so I'm trying to find a way to really add damaging power to it."

Then you do not know how to straigt blast - if you saturate someone's face with SB's, the damage will be extensive (unless your wearing a helmet as you described). It doesn't take mutch to break a nose, knock teeth out, take out the eyes, or break a trachea. SB is just a saturation of Vertical Fists. Its not an attack that can't be countered, but when done at the right time, it is extremely effective. Also, its a good entry for headbutts, elbows, knees and throws.

"But you have just proved my point completely. You'll get taken down trying to straight blast!"

Ive never gotten taken down when i sucessfully landed SB's - Ive always found myself in a position of control. I have chosen to take people down after landing a bunch of blast to the face. Like I said before, you can counter any movement - if the attack is initiated poorley.

As far as going to the ground - if thats your forte - that great for a fight that is one on one or sport. But in a bar fight/street fight - i would recomend standing cause you never know when one of his friends will attack you from behind. Gaurd is great for sport but i wouldn't suggest using it on pavement - its too easy for your oponent to bash your head into the pavement. If your in a street fright that goes to the ground your better off on top - you can use the ground as a weapon.

[MikeJKD]

When and when not to Blast

A couple of things....

First, I've used the blast to good effect in real world pressure, but the only times I've ever done it well, it's followed a solid interception, destruction, or heavy counter attack. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the blast is only effective for me if the opponent is hurt or off balance or both. This brings me to the point about "running in place."

The blast isn't a finishing move. It's a transition, like a sweep from the guard. It'd be pretty ridiculous to sweep a guy and expect him to tap out. Same with the blast. While I have knocked down two people with the blast in barfight scenarios, it usually just allows me to close the gap and get to the neck (clinch) without worrying about getting nailed on the way in. Again, assuming I've done my preliminary work and hit the bastard first. In my experience, the blast is never really more than three or four beats long, because by that time, I'm close enough to clinch, which was the goal in the first place. There are (as always) some times when blasting isn't a great idea.

If you're fighting someone that can grapple well (and I don't care who you are, if you're a grappler, it shows...) then I have found that the clinch is not the best place to be, and therefore, the blast really loses its purpose. Against a strong grappler, it might be better to keep to the interceptions and make him pay for trying to close the gap. If you land a solid shot, then put on the pressure a la Vitor Belfort and modify the Wing Chun Blast into a series of longer range boxing punches, all the while watching your distance carefully so as to avoid that takedown somebody mentioned earlier. If you start slamming punches into his arms instead of his face, it means his hands are high, and he's going to have a hard time reaching out to grab you anyway, so tattoo his leg with a good kick, and back out to your range.

Basically, the point is this. Remember that the blast, like anything else you train is just a tool. Every tool has its uses, and there are good and bad times to try to put any tool into effect. A hammer is the wrong tool for cutting firewood, just like an axe may not be your best bet for pounding nails. Proper tool at the proper time in the proper way brings the proper result.

Bahala Na,
Mike

[Underdog]

It seems that my post had created quite a stir!

Good posts,guys, very informative.

I'm just returned from the usual weekly private lesson in PSF, this time I was introduced to the blast. I did say "introduced" meaning that the instructor sparred with me entering with the blast as a way of showing it's efficiency.

The results were intersting.

I've found that the blast was overwhelming after a painful attack (I got blasted after a HARD groin kick...ouch!), and as a method of gaining the HKE distance it was surprisingly effective.

However, if the guy did more than two or three vertical punches in a row, I used head movement and a looping rear hook, a la Vovchanchin, to NAIL him for good.

Actually, the very same looping rear hook, proved stunningly effective this morning....the guy was worried about the centerline, but not so for circular strikes...

However, the most difficult thing for me right now, is moving while remaining QUARELY IN FRONT of my opp.; very unusual.

[gungfuhero]

The straight blast like any other tactic needs to be multi-dimensional. It needs to be trained after an interception, after a counter attack or simultaneous attack and defense, offensively after an entry, after trapping and on the ground. You also need to train against punches, kicks, tackles and grabs when you are doing the blast. Moving at different paces and being able to modify you cadence also factors in to a good Jik Chung Chuie. Whether the straight blast is effective or not is depends on how well these factors are addressed. If you only work blasting somebody who doesn't fight back, you will most likely be taken down or jacked up. Your chances success with anything is a result of how well and thoroughly you trained it.

[bjjboulder]

THE CLINCH

In reply to Mikejkd's post. That was a very good reply. I happen to agree with most of it. Here is the thing. Mike said that he has found that if the guy is a good grappler then the clinch isn't really where you want to be and the Blast kinda loses its purpose....

That is quite the problem isn't it? Dan Inosanto said that "All the kickboxing you've done for your whole life is just for the first maybe 5 sec of a fight,..just to get that entry" Because a JKD mans' whole game is to get into trapping range where he can bring his most viscious tools to bear. But if the clinch is not where you want to be with a good grappler--then the whole strategy of JKD is gone. What you have now turned into is a defensive maniac backpeddling and throwing out jabs hoping that you can avoid the takedown...ie what Mike said.."try to make him pay for closing the gap". What kind of strategy is that?

It just gos back to the foundation of this whole MMA movement..to quote Matt Thornton, "If you can't fight on the ground...YOU CAN'T FIGHT!".

But then maybe you can tell if the guy is a grappler like Mike said. And I may agree with that..a grappler has a different type of posture. So you know if it is ok to straightblast the guy or not.
I am absolutely sure that the PFS formula works against karate guys in frontstances...I think it would be much harder to do it against someone who could really box..but possible. Here is the problem.....

It comes down to the idea of a real fight situation/self-defense vs. an episode of mutal agreed combat. BIG DIFFERENCE.

The more realworld violence I witness and experience the more I realize the fights explode in your face FAST! Tony Blauer says that by far the two most common street attacks are the wild hook, and the tackle both by surprise. In my experience I absolutely agree. You can't prepare for and explosion...all you can do is cover up and clinch. This is where jiu-jitsu does wonders in the real world! Honestly I really can't understand the idea of being able to dance around and effect a stop-hit before leading into the blast. If you have the time and space to do that...its not a fight, its mutal combat, and thats your own damn fault!

So while the blast itself is under scutiny here...it is part of an entire strategy that may be flawed. Time to rethink this whole "streetfighting thing" guys.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Hmm. It's obvious you've never really sparred or fought with a guy who had good hands and knew how to defend the clinch and takedown... gulp! I'd be careful getting into fights then.

I'm very confident in my skills to clinch, avoid the clinch, takedown, and avoid the takedown. I've been doing nothing but grappling these past 5 years, but now I'm going to take a break "kinda" and try putting some stuff together.
When you try to clinch someone, and he is a grappler himself and knows how to defend it, you're going to miss and eat punches. When you try to takedown you'll get sprawled on, elbowed, and kicked in the back of the head.
I do agree though that clinch and ground skills are extremely extremely important. In fact they're a major aspect of "my expression" of JKD.....I don't like to blast, I like to clinch, because I have skill in it. But I have to be able to do other things just in case I run into a grappler who's better than me.
BJJ boulder, I hope you don't just run in and clinch people.... man you're going to run into a 12 year veteran wrestler or something, and .....LOL well I hope you don't think you are the absolute best at grappling. I'm sure your good, and I'm good too, but there's a lot of really strong guys out there.
Be careful of being blind, and running in because you love your art.
You may even catch a knife to the ribs. Streetfighting is very serious if you're talking "real violence".

Ryu