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I realise im a little late, but the page to dl the movie dont exsist any more.
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I downloaded it off some site about a month ago before I even saw this post.
I think it was from Mcdojo.com or some other similar site that hassles various martial arts. If the pic that is still on the page is part of the movie.
I remember it being pretty lame anyways .. your not missing out .. they were fighting in a space about the size of your average toilet .. basically they stood front on too each other and just stood on the spot and kicked an punched as they had no room to move.Comment
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tae kwon do and timing
hah hah hah hah...I can't believe I just read a post from someone supporting tae kwon do and high kicks..
"all you need is timing..and.."
well, I could kick someone's ass with a pair of CHOPSTICKS if I had good enough TIMING.. but THAT would require some godawful good timing..
just like tae kwon do..
I'd rather use the chopsticks, however, given a choice..Comment
its interesting that people have such a negative view of TKD. I assume it is because of how it is taught since as I have traveled the country I have found the training to be quite awful. But to say here is no value in it or that it is ineffective is just plan silly.
Most of the same techniques are in Muay Thai and many of the moves are found in JKD. High Kicks can be used, if you know now to open the target and hit it.
Maybe I have just trained and taught differently than most. When my friend who was a JKD instructor and I started working out he was suprised at how much was contained in what I taught. When we would spar there wre times I could knock him upside the head usually after a straightblast.
It isn't the art it is how it was taught and trained.
Wish I would have known you lived in St. Louis Quietanswer. I was always looking for people to work out with when I lived there.
Personally WTF and ITF TKD are usually not worth training in. they call it traditional. But I have always believed that Traditional meant things that work. Since if you were using it to protect your life you better only concentrate on what works. That also means it must change with the Times.
So when I taught TKD we worked on sparring with weapons, all targets could be hit with anything. groundfighting, trapping, boxing.
MOst TKD believes it's all about kicking, but you are supposed to train equally, your hands should be as good as your feet. Left as good as right, and Stand up as good as ground.
But I haven't been able to find any other schools that train they way my school did.
Most of the same techniques are in Muay Thai and many of the moves are found in JKD. High Kicks can be used, if you know now to open the target and hit it.
Maybe I have just trained and taught differently than most. When my friend who was a JKD instructor and I started working out he was suprised at how much was contained in what I taught. When we would spar there wre times I could knock him upside the head usually after a straightblast.
It isn't the art it is how it was taught and trained.
Wish I would have known you lived in St. Louis Quietanswer. I was always looking for people to work out with when I lived there.
Personally WTF and ITF TKD are usually not worth training in. they call it traditional. But I have always believed that Traditional meant things that work. Since if you were using it to protect your life you better only concentrate on what works. That also means it must change with the Times.
So when I taught TKD we worked on sparring with weapons, all targets could be hit with anything. groundfighting, trapping, boxing.
MOst TKD believes it's all about kicking, but you are supposed to train equally, your hands should be as good as your feet. Left as good as right, and Stand up as good as ground.
But I haven't been able to find any other schools that train they way my school did.
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hrm. food for thought.
I agree with you, EF.
Alot of Muay Thai is hidden in tae kwon do..Only hidden because it isn't taught correctly.
You're right. Perhaps I'd be more precise to just bitch about assembly-line training techniques, instead of bashing TKD in general.
I'm still not much on high kicks, however. It just seems like in the moment the fighter uses his high kick (succesful or not) he had a lot of other simpler, more efficient tools that were equally available. But that's just me.
Another problem I have is with the punching. You say it should be equal punching and kicking.. That's fine. But I have yet to see a tae kwon do school that didn't teach the old "hand on the hip" recoil position.
You also say "traditional should mean functional, but it has to move with the times too..".. (paraphrasing)..
But "move with the times" is the opposite meaning of "traditional".. traditional means "stays the same, year in and out"...it's a dogmatic process.
Just some thoughts.
I agree with you, EF.
Alot of Muay Thai is hidden in tae kwon do..Only hidden because it isn't taught correctly.
You're right. Perhaps I'd be more precise to just bitch about assembly-line training techniques, instead of bashing TKD in general.
I'm still not much on high kicks, however. It just seems like in the moment the fighter uses his high kick (succesful or not) he had a lot of other simpler, more efficient tools that were equally available. But that's just me.
Another problem I have is with the punching. You say it should be equal punching and kicking.. That's fine. But I have yet to see a tae kwon do school that didn't teach the old "hand on the hip" recoil position.
You also say "traditional should mean functional, but it has to move with the times too..".. (paraphrasing)..
But "move with the times" is the opposite meaning of "traditional".. traditional means "stays the same, year in and out"...it's a dogmatic process.
Just some thoughts.
Last edited by quietanswer; 12-18-2002, 01:24 PM.
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It isn't the art it is how it was taught and trained.
I disagree. How it is trained IS the art. The individual techniques are fairly common. A kick is a kick. A punch is a punch. These are the same with only minor differences between each style. It is these minor differences combined with the philosophy (strategy and tactics) that differentiate the arts.
TKD is considered a joke, in my opinion, because they are trying to sell a sport as self defense. I have yet to EVER see an advertisement for Judo as being for self-defense. Not to say they aren't out there, but I have yet to see one. The ratio of TKD to Judo self defense advocates has to be 100:1 or better.
Agreed, certain techniques and methods of training can be used in self defense (as all other arts can be). But on the whole, the problem still remains.
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Well, then, we have boiled it down to "There are no arts, just training methods.."
Which, I believe, is the truth.
The difference lies in how we wish to talk about it - what vocabulary we choose, and how we choose to use it.
Either way..fighting is fighting.
Which, I believe, is the truth.
The difference lies in how we wish to talk about it - what vocabulary we choose, and how we choose to use it.
Either way..fighting is fighting.
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I thought we boiled it down to The art = the training method?
For having a quiet answer, you sure do talk a lot!
At least, that's the rumor.
Spanky
For having a quiet answer, you sure do talk a lot!
At least, that's the rumor.
Spanky
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I think you are right it all comes down to training methods. Bruce certainly used a lot of things that already existed, but he opened up his mind and figured out a way or philosphy of training that was quite different. And although many martial artists may never develop Bruces abilities, I think it is the natural progression of a serious martial artist. Bruce just got there ahead of most.
As for Traditinal, That was the point I was trying to make. The Traditional spirit of most martial arts was their use as a training system for combat. Many people have taken that to mean that to mean that it should be static. In reality if you were to follow the traditional ideal, it would be to constantly improve and increase the efficency of the system.
I have spoken with many "masters" to ask them the reason for a technique. And many of them say that it is a traditional move and that it is not really good for anything it is just part of they systems heritage, In almost every case I have found that it is a valid technique that is usually misunderstood, or is simply no longer practical for most modern people because they are too soft.
as for High Kicks, there are often many tools that can be used. the idea is to have one more tool in your arsenal. The problem with TKD is the overreliance on kicks. However sometimes kicks are more effective because it is what is least expected.
Example. I have learned to throw some techniques so that at the beginning of execution it looks like a differnt technique. YOu think i'm using a right cross but when you push the punch past the kick is actually increased in momentum and is hidden with the activity of the punch. The person never sees the kick. Note that if you have never seen a high speed well timed kick to your head you often don't know immediately how to react. For use against untrained fighters it is a way to stay out side their functional striking zone and still deliver a high power attack.
But you can't use them all the time. I always taught use what is the least expected and most convenient at the time. Or when they get better know how to create the situation where the target is open for the tool you wish to use.
If how an art is trained is the art then no art really exists. Every instructor does things differently. There is a TKD school down the street that doesn't allow kicks to the head, not because the instructor doesn't believe they are useful, but because their adult members are afraid of black eyes and damage to their faces.
as an instructor you teach your students everything you know as quickly as possible. They will then learn other things as they progress as MA students. They will eventually surpass the instructor because they are learning new things for themselves and are being told everything the instructor knows. THat is how it is supposed to work. So every generation of MA students should increase the knowledge base of the art. and thus training methods will continue to change.
We have all run into poor instructors with good arts. And i have met many good instructors with poor arts.
OH and I have seen COMBAT JUDO schools. Hell I haven't seen it personally but I have heard of TAEBO being marketed as a self defense system. Go fig.
As for Traditinal, That was the point I was trying to make. The Traditional spirit of most martial arts was their use as a training system for combat. Many people have taken that to mean that to mean that it should be static. In reality if you were to follow the traditional ideal, it would be to constantly improve and increase the efficency of the system.
I have spoken with many "masters" to ask them the reason for a technique. And many of them say that it is a traditional move and that it is not really good for anything it is just part of they systems heritage, In almost every case I have found that it is a valid technique that is usually misunderstood, or is simply no longer practical for most modern people because they are too soft.
as for High Kicks, there are often many tools that can be used. the idea is to have one more tool in your arsenal. The problem with TKD is the overreliance on kicks. However sometimes kicks are more effective because it is what is least expected.
Example. I have learned to throw some techniques so that at the beginning of execution it looks like a differnt technique. YOu think i'm using a right cross but when you push the punch past the kick is actually increased in momentum and is hidden with the activity of the punch. The person never sees the kick. Note that if you have never seen a high speed well timed kick to your head you often don't know immediately how to react. For use against untrained fighters it is a way to stay out side their functional striking zone and still deliver a high power attack.
But you can't use them all the time. I always taught use what is the least expected and most convenient at the time. Or when they get better know how to create the situation where the target is open for the tool you wish to use.
If how an art is trained is the art then no art really exists. Every instructor does things differently. There is a TKD school down the street that doesn't allow kicks to the head, not because the instructor doesn't believe they are useful, but because their adult members are afraid of black eyes and damage to their faces.
as an instructor you teach your students everything you know as quickly as possible. They will then learn other things as they progress as MA students. They will eventually surpass the instructor because they are learning new things for themselves and are being told everything the instructor knows. THat is how it is supposed to work. So every generation of MA students should increase the knowledge base of the art. and thus training methods will continue to change.
We have all run into poor instructors with good arts. And i have met many good instructors with poor arts.
OH and I have seen COMBAT JUDO schools. Hell I haven't seen it personally but I have heard of TAEBO being marketed as a self defense system. Go fig.
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I have spoken with many "masters"
Yes, and you are speaking with one right now junior!
Seriously,
I can agree with everything you said in the immediately previous post.
'Combat Judo' is few and far between. But just about every mall in America has a TKD 'Self Defense' School.
As I have stated previously, you can teach a martial art without calling it self defense and receive no grief from me (read Yoga, Tai Chi, Chi Kung).
What were we originally 'arguing about'?
Oh yeah, TKD....
As the rule, TKD is not self defense, your method may or may not be the exception. Judo (as in Kodokan Judo) is not taught as self defense. It remains a sport. True, some techniques cross over, or can, but I digress.
Read my post on Clearing the Air and that might help explain it.
I'm so good looking it's hard to deal with sometimes.
Szczepankiewicz the Nostalgic
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