Knee vulnerability

[Brokenmace]

Many of us know the danger of a straight knee in combat. A straight knee is easily broken, especially on forward motion (opponent shuffles toward you).

Does anyone have any street esperience attacking a bent knee? Like you would see in a bi jong stance?

One of my primary strategies, in any situation that affords the space, is to take out the knee to cripple mobility. This is designed to preclude the drawing of a non-projectile weapon (like a club), or force the draw (to give me time to react without exposing throat, gut, lungs etc.).

I know it would hurt. I just want to know if you can break a knee in that position. Is it much harder? Does saving your knee from this type of attack rely more on experience or stance structure (I mean after you've failed to evade or block)?

[auto]

Wrestlers usually crouch

with their knees bent. It's not easy to hurt the bent knee of a guy say, very strong doing squats(weight training). The tendons/ligaments are very durable. However, if you manuever and smash the knee from the side they'll drop like an old blanket. You can actually dislocate the joint that way. Like you, a fast shin/knee kick was one of my first priorities(depending on distance of course) and worked well on big guys. Boxers fight with straight knees and are easy to damage mainly because they train upper body movement more or less and don't expect low kicks.
As far as saving your own knee. That depends on your 'sense of distance' and anticipation of your opponent's movement. If he likes to stop kick you'll find out right away using small broken timing steps forward and back. If you are a quick person beat him to the punch with your own kick. If you are not so quick, draw out his kick with a feint and then follow up(with timing of course).
The damage caused by a knee kick is usually the cartillage behind the cap not the cap itself or hyperextension of the leg tearing the ligaments behind the knee. Hitting it from the side will 'pop' it crippling them instantly.
So then, experience and stance structure, a basic awareness, timing and distance all play a part in avoiding the same shin/knee kick that we both love so dearly

[Power]

The Knee?

Aside from empirical responses, how many of you have actually known someone that blew out the knee of an 'opponent' as opposed to merely discussing what can be done to the knee?

I know that I have received kicks and have given kicks during sparring/training and have yet to see or feel the blown knee.

Just curious.

Chad Power
PMA Timmins

[Brokenmace]

Thanks for the responses, guys. Mr. Power, I know what you mean. That was my original question. I wanted to know if anyone had actually blown out someone's knee in combat. Knee kicks aren't really so instinctual. Usually the first response in any fight is instinctual and involves the hands. Fights rarely last beyond 10 - 30 seconds, so this might explain why few folks have done this.

However, just from watching football and other sports, along with witnessing numerous injuries in my dojo, as well as a few Vale Tudo mishaps and illegal moves, I'd say the knee is very vulnerable. But I'd still like to hear about it being played out in the street. In that scenerio, I'd like to know if the knee was bent or straight. auto's comments helped, though.

Thanks to you both.

BTW, when I say "broken knee" I don't just mean bone. I mean any severe injury that cripples the joint.

[MercuryTurrent]

three of my favorite offenses to the lower body are the thai kick, inside wheel kick, and an advancing side kick. each of them can either break, dis-coordinate, or stop an attack.
in defense of lower attacks, its important to stay mobile. and when you're still, you should be close enough to avoid it, or far enough away. quick high kicks (wheel kick, hook kick, fast cresents) are also a good way to get your legs out of the way, and garunttee a safe attack for someone with their foot/let attempting strike at your knee. 8-)

[Brokenmace]

Wheel Kick?

What's a wheel kick? We probably use different terminology in our kwoon. I've never heard of that one. Is it from Karate?

But, yes, throwing quick kicks on your opponent's kick does get your knee out of the way. Trouble is, it often leads to momentary entanglement. This can disrupt mobility, and leaves openings for the more agile. However, if you are the more agile one, or your opponent is enexperienced, it is a good idea.

P.S. Mr. Power, have you ever received a full-force sidekick to your bare knee during training? If it didn't hurt I doubt your oppenent knew what he/she was doing. Also, it's a poor way to train.

Most of the in-school injuries I'm referring to were the result of folks throwing kicks incorrectly and tweaking out the supporting knee, or falling wrong and landing on their knee. My point was that with full force, injuring the knee is easy. Even the Gracies seem to like the sidekick to the knee, and they aren't very into striking!

[MercuryTurrent]

wheel kick is another name for the roundhouse, usually said instead to refer to a RH off the front foot

[Guest]

Brokenmace - no offence, but have the Gracie's ever actually HURT anyone with the kick? Or have they merely used it as a feint.

[Brokenmace]

None taken at all, Bri Thai. From what I've seen, most folks who practice BJJ exclusively are terrible at feinting and don't have much power in their strikes either. What I'm saying is that it is in their art. It is one of the few strikes they consider powerful and of high value, in common with the occasional elbow. I'm not saying many exclusive BJJ stylists throw good sidekicks. Seems they don't. It's not their focus. If you can't hit, you can't feint.

After all, who expects an aikidoist to throw a solid cross, or a Thai boxer to flow perfectly into a gooseneck lock? Some do, the vast majority don't. It's the artist, not the art.

BTW, I don't practice BJJ. I just train around it a lot.

I believe BJJ is of high value, though. If you slip and fall or are tripped you better have a game still. Otherwise, it's your end.

Wheel kicks are RHs, eh? We call them hook kicks. So many names, so little time . . .

Ouch, suffering from RWS (repetitive wristlock syndrome)

[Power]

Side Kick to the Knee

Hi BrokenMace,

First off, please call me Chad...at 29, Mr. Power is not in my vocabulary as of yet.

Do I personally know of anyone who has ever blown out anyones knee in training? No. Not in martial arts training anyway. I know of some friends who have blown out the ACL's during hockey, but that is unrelated.

Regarding the question as to whether I have ever received a "full force sike-kick to my bare knee during training" the answer would have to be no. The very first style that I studied was Shaolin Fist Kung Fu and I was taught that the side kick was a very potent and deadly kick if applied correctly. HOWEVER, I have never been hit with a full force palm strike to the bridge of my nose either; yet we were breaking bricks with them in Shaolin time after time. My point is, we have to break away from thinking that technique 'X' when applied to situation 'Y' will produce result 'Z'.

This is common with training that does not involve a resisting opponent or revolve around aliveness. The truth be known...the side-kick is not one of the tools that we train on a regular basis.

I say this with the comfort that we have used the sidekick in the past at my school and many of my guys were VERY adept with it. However, once we began sparring in a way that allowed clinching and ground work, it opened up too many opportunities for takedowns and off-balancing.

Great Posts Guys!

Chad Power
PMA Timmins
BTS PDR Pro Team

[auto]

Hi Brokenmace

Well I have damage peoples knees with the shin/knee kick. The one I remember most was because he went to the hospital and I went to jail(I was released three days later as witnesses testified it was in self defense). I was in a bar at the time(Bahama Mamas) and apologized for my friend - who kept spilling beers- to the waitress. Out of nowhere this big guy grabbed my arm and swung at me saying at the same time "leave her alone". I was like "what the #@$%". Instinctively I ducked under the swing and trapped his punching arm( actually he pinned his own arm against the other because he didn't let go of mine and I trapped it there with the held arm). His buddies and mine jumped in to seperate us. I didn't lose my cool-simply looked at him and said "ok, out back". I think he was suprised that I challenged him and when we were outside I told him " well, come on you started this sh@$". This guy was done in three blows. He stepped forward and WHAM--shin/knee kick-- I felt the give as I snapped though his leg--then WHAM WHAM -- he leaned forward as he was reeling back to grab his leg-I followed closely hitting him in the side of his throat,circled around as he bent over and hammered him in the back of his skull. He went down like a jolly green giant. His friends just looked at him knocked out on the ground and I heard " Oh fu#@! I turned around and my buddies(actually they were guys I worked with and this was the first time we had been out drinking together) were just looking at me with blank stares. They grabbed me and rushed me outside but the cops were already there and everyone in the bar had run outside scared of a bar fight. The funniest thing though was that the two bouncers who watched/let us fight kept saying that this guy was going to kill me because he fuc@!# up everyone who fought him. Later my public defender told me that the guy couldn't walk and would probably have to to go through physical therapy because the knee was shattered but since he started it and I was protecting myself the charges were dropped to public disturbance(misdemeanor) and I got time served.
You know, there is no greater feeling than finishing off someone that everyone says is going to kick your ass-- especially a big guy. The thing is though, that most people tense when confronted; the adrenaline is running--the heart is beating fast and hard. You have to be relaxed and practice being relaxed so that when the time comes you can call upon this 'relaxed state' at a moments notice. It's not easy though, it takes time and experience fighting to gain this relaxation state. The second thing is you have to practice this kick over and over--hundreds, sometimes thousands of kicks. I practiced on a three inch thick makiwara board which I eventually snapped in half--so I made one out of steel covered with straw with a shock(off my stair stepper) and a coil spring(off my Chevelle) behind it. Man did that thing feel real-If you didn't kick it correctly you would bounce off . As for timing, I used a partner to practice kicking him as he moved forward;backward;sideways etc. just don't kick hard or you'll hurt your bud'--use controlled speed.
If anyone else has experienced this, speak up, I know I am not the only one.

[auto]

Oops!

Sorry Mace, I didn't completely answer your question. During the fight his knee was slightly bent but the kick straightened it for him--actually, it hyperextended sending him backward. I did however discover by accident kicking a bent knee from the side. I kicked a guy crouching in the front of the knee--it was obvious that it hurt but he didn't go down. I circled right and kicked again--this time from the side and he let out a scream and fell down holding his leg--he couldn't get back up--I left him there and walked away so I don't know how much damage I had done. I felt a 'pop' though so most likely it was dislocated. Hope this help somewhat.

[Guest]

I suppose auto has trained the low side kick much harder than the rest of us. I do occasionally kick low side kick on my 6 foot bag, but that hardly puts me in his league.

Maybe you don't hear of it working often, beacuse you don't hear of people training it often.

auto, as regards your fight, how could you claim self defence when you had both willingly gone outside for a fight? That wouldn't work in the UK, the law here expects you to walk away if possible.

[Marc_2002]

Knee Injuries

Can there be worse injuries than knee injuries? (besides breaking your back, neck or losing a limb!). Not only do they hurt lke hell, injuries to the knee seem to take a long time to heal and even when things feel ok you might just find youself walking along and have one of your knees give way.

About 2 months ago sparring in TKD i got kicked right under the knee cap - not only did I see stars because of the sheer pain of it, I actually couldnt straigthen my leg out for half an hour. Both tendons and ligaments had been damaged, but luckily not seriously and I've been having physio for it - but even so somedays my kneecap keeps feeling like its going to pop out, and occasionally it gives way

My physio tells me I might have those sort of symptoms for quite some time, if not long term, unless of course I want to resort to serious surgery if it doesnt seem to get any better! arrgghh...

Anyone had any serious injuries that still bug you??

[Brokenmace]

Thanks for all your responses, guys! And here I thought this thread would die . . .

Anyway, Bri Thai, auto lives in Cali! Most places in the US don't require you to walk away. If someone throws the first punch they're fair game. The primary question is wether auto "escelated" the conflict. The prosecutor probably argued that his martial training accounted for Assualt with a Deadly Weapon. And remember, he didn't really get away with it. Even three days in jail sucks!

If he had killed him or permanently crippled him (blinding, broken back, etc.), things might be different.

Do I train the sidekick? Like a mofo. We don't kick full-force at an unprotected knee (of course!). But we do kick almost maxforce on a knee protected by a catcher's knee guard. I don't know of anyone who was actually injured this way.

auto, I can't believe the guy didn't fall immediately after that neck strike. Most folks drop like a limp sack after that. Must've been a hurtin'.

Sorry for the Mr. bit, Chad! I'm used to it . . . As for sidekicks and takedowns? Well, that happens, true. Sidekicks are about timing, though. They are a good opener on the streets of North America, because the folks who start fights are rarely the ones who train in complete MA. They train boxing or wrestling. They don't deal with kicks.

Also, they're is a sweet spot on a man's forward movement where shooting in is simply impractical. That's when you attack.