Sparring = reality

[Guest]

Ryu - have you ever considered a job with the UN or something? I fully agree with you.

Straightblaster - apology accepted. I have no knowledge how tough or not you are, so I will shut the heck up.

Good thread though.

[StraightBlaster]

For everyone who is affraid of the psycho on the street....

Remember when grappling first hit the U.S. (keep quite you high school wrestlers i'm talking about the ufc here) and everyone was affraid of them? scared of getting taken down? lots of gimmicks came out to protect you, lots of lies about grappling, and such. But in the end the only way to deal with this grappling threat was to learn grappling. If your scared of something it means its strong and you should learn it.

Am I saying to learn to be a psycho? YES!! You can condition your self to reach a mental level of violence that is seen in these psycho guys. Because you are not psycho you can control it, bring it out when ever you want, and everyone can learn it. Its part of human nature its just repressed from society.

The way I learned this was I was fortunate enough to find a very well written version of the Book of Five Rings by miyamoto musashi, it turns out that he was so great not because of his sword skill, which was awesome but so was allot of other peoples sword skill, but that fact that the guy went "psycho" when he fought. Its not a random rage tho, its a cool collected determination to kill at any costs.

I learned this through the book of five rings, but I have met people that couldn't pick it up from there. So the book may help you if you get a good copy and can understand it (i had to read it three times before i started to really understand)

What i'm saying is it's possible to reach that level, and man you are unbeatable if you can

[jaychiu]

Let's get back to the subject at hand first.

Sparring isn't "real" combat fighting, since it is in a controlled enviorment, but short of going out in the world and picking fights with everyone you see, it's better than nothing. The benefits of sparring are that you will learn timing, conditioning, seeing the opening and taking advantage of it, etc. etc. etc. These are the things that can only be learned against live opponents, unlike kata's and techniques, regardless of if it's a controlled enviorment or not. Look at heavy weight fighters when they are gearing up for a match. They get in the ring and spar. Why? So that when they do go and fight for the belt all those things are there. Are these skills useful for a street encounter? Sure. Against a "normal" street opponent who throws the haymaker...you should see it coming a mile away, be able to step in and straight blast away.

Now you guys also mentioned mindset. If you ever enter any competition, Muay Thai bout, point sparring, whatever, you will get some of the problems you indicated: fear, adrelene dump, etc. Hell, there was a 6'5" 250llbs. dude standing across from me ready to knock my head off - ref or no ref! Trust me - those things are there and they have to be dealt with. I know it's not life or death but you still have to deal with those emotions and this can help if your ever in a street encounter. What's the one thing you guys didn't address? CONFIDENCE. I built it by saying 6'5", 250llbs. wants to knock me out? I'm going to knock him out! How's this help in a street encounter? Well if I feel that I can handle myself with a skilled opponent of that size then I can handle most unskilled fighters of a smaller stature. And most "attackers" are looking for victims. Showing confidence, not arrogance, often makes attackers think twice and say "I'll wait for an easier target."

This doesn't make me go around and say "I can take on any unskilled street fighter." That's silly. That doesn't take into account Luck and Murphy's Law (both HUGE factors). What it does make me say is that "By the off chance I do get into an encounter, I will have the skill and ability to make me, hopefully, the one who walks away from it." (as oppose to be carted off in a body bag)

Now you guys mention the 1% out there. I don't know where you guys hang out but I'm not hanging out where those 1% are. I don't discount them but what's the best way to survive a street encounter? Don't get in one.

The best defense is common sense.

[auto]

Talking about mindsets

Check out how relaxed Mario Sperry(my favorite NHB fighter) is before each and every bout. That comes from experience. He had well over 200 fights before his only loss. It's the same thing on the street. After and untold number of street fights you develop a certain 'relaxed confidence'. The adrenaline feeling is still there but the nervous feeling is not. As far as the 1%, yeah there are some crazies out there. However, if you are going to try to over power some 250 lb. crazed maniac with punches and kicks you're a fool. Even a metal door head banging fool won't be able to do much blinded or crippled. Street fighting is based on "street smarts" and without that you're going to get your ass kicked a lot. And it's very true that sparring and reality are very different in as much as it's not feasable to cripple,blind or choke out your partner or to hit him in places that may kill him(ie. base of the skull etc.). Fortunately though, training with the correct mindset will give you an 'egde' over the 'typical' streetfighter. To be a great streetfighter requires you to be ruthless. Unfortunately, as I learned, there's a price to pay--numerous injuries, time in correctional facilities. And then the unexpected attacks from behind by the opponent's buddy(ies) and weapons and/or environement(ie. cement, broken glass etc.) to deal with.

[crazyjoe380]

and you plan on learning the dim mach in what year? let's get realistic here.. unless you were born in the martial arts not many of us on the western continents are... then you go for what you can.

i dont take martial arts for spiritual enlightment.. i got my friends family for that...

all that other shit in between is usless.. it's modern times..
not back in the donkey asian days where you bow down to your teacher...

[Ryu (JKD?)]

what's donkey asian days?


People in Asia still bow to their teachers. A lot of BJJ students here even bow to their instructors.

[mike]

2 cents:

I agree that while sparring is the closest you can get to a life or death fight I too feel that it is far from the real thing. After having worked in a state prison Id like to point out a few differences. I have never to this day regardless of who I was sparring or the level of intensity worried that I might get HIV positive blood on me, In the street this a reality. Like Bri Thai I have seen what insane people can do to each other. For example, during a routine cell extraction (if any of them can be called routine) an inmate shoved a screwdriver through a riot helmet. Any of you familiar with such helmets will realise the severity of this. I have seen small inmates fight off as many as four other correctional officers using only their strength and ferocity, I have seen people beaten within an inch of there lives with a padlock attached to a belt, stabbed with knives so small they were hidden between the index and middle finger yet able to slit a throat. How do you train for that? How do you fight someone able to fend off three or four healty large men? And please bear in mind that these guys arent trained fighters, they are the thugs and muggers you do drills to counter.

Please dont take this the wrong way, I love my school and I respect ALL martial arts but sparring is far removed form reality.


As a side note: Ive read that before Bruce Lee made apparent the value of sparring a majority of schools didnt advocate sparring at all is this true?


thanks,

Mike

[Sean J]

I think most of you are missing the target by focussing only on the fighting aspect and believing you are talking about personal security. I assume that most of you can fight better than my wife, and I also assume that she would stand a better chance of walking unharmed through one of the rougher districts of any city in the western world than quite a few of you guys.
Why? Because if we only a question of how to react when somebody unexpectedly attacks us our chances are not too good anyway. If somebody sneaks up from behind with a knife - kiss you ass good bye; chances that you'll make it are bad.
But why put yourself in the situation, where this can easily happen? Use good street tactics. Read the body language of the people around you, and way down the street you are walking. There is a thousand ways to spot the potential bad guys before they spot you. And act intelligently and acordingly! Don't wait for the surprises. If you do chances are, that if you ever have to fight it will be to save somebody elses ass and not your own.

[Guest]

Of course we try to avoid trouble. But the question was about whether sparring was good to assist real fighting.

In trying to be clever you are avoiding the issue.

What do you do in your school? Practice turning around and walking away? Wha Dan grade are you in that?

[Sean J]

I actually thought that I was commenting on an argument that somebody threw into the discussion which boiled down said something like: You have no chance anyway against some badass on the street who just attacks you when you are not prepared for it.
The point is you can beat anybody when you attack unexpectedly. The question I am asking is why let the situation evolve where somebody can attack unexpectedly. The avoid such situations is common sense, reading body language, using your own body language consciously, planning your tactics several steps ahead of the possible attackers. It is not a question of walking away or not walking away rather than getting things done the way you want it - no matter if it is about going down the block and getting a newspaper or bringing a client or a client's money from point A to point B.
I did not say "walk the other way if you see some badass lurking in a doorway down the street". I said "make sure that you see not only the badass lurking in a doorway, but also the other guy sitting on a car fender who is going to ask if you have a light once you are past the other guy in the doorway". Now why the hell should I walk past them the way they expect me to, when I can do it in a way that is tactically better?

Then I may even have a chance to create a situation where I have a chance to react the way I have trained for in the dojo. But experience has shown, that I rarely have to. Attackers hate it when you mess up their tactics.

[Guest]

OK. I will let you off this time.

Just be clearer in the future!

[Sean J]

Thanks. I'll buy you a pint some time.

[Guest]

Make it an orange juice! I'm in training for Caeserx.......

[Morné]

Guidelines

Interesting thread with great input.
Two guidelines i would like to add to this thread.

* 'If you want to learn how to fight make sure you train against someone who is fighting back' Burton Richardson
* 'The way you perform in the street relfects the way you train at your gym'

Enjoy!

Morné
JKD - High Performance Street Fighting

[Suzuki_Fanboy]

I agree with most of you here in at least some aspects. But I don't think you should say martial artists aren't prepared for "haymakers" (yes, that punch specifically) because it is one of the easiest moves to counter. If you have at least a decent punching speed, you can do some damage in a counter to a "haymaker" punch. You can even slip into an armbar or choke hold from one of those, if you're fast enough. Sparring is good because you learn how to block good punches, then when you go up against a "haymaker" coming in from a upper-angle, its not too tough, IMHO.

Nice thread, by the way.