Damage

[Sphinx]

I was just wondering when applying a hook kick(i think that is right) where should u aim? If it is the knee what part and what damage would this do, are hook kicks effective.

People say aim for the collar bone with various blows, what damage can it do, i think it is too hard to hit accurately.

How hard is it to damage someones knee?

In jun fan/ jkd are there any high kicks/ fancy kicks or flips?

[Brokenmace]

In traditional JKD you would practice reverse hook kicks (kicking with the heel) to the head, and cresent kicks. Spinning side and reverse kicks are still taught in concepts schools, and none of the above are taught in many others.

A hook kick is a good kick if thrown properly. Sometimes it is little different from a Thai roundhouse kick. Other times it has attributes unique to Jun Fan Gungfu.

The most effective hook kick in JKD (IMO) is the lead hook kick to the inner thigh. You strike with the toe, or preferrably with the instep of the foot (because it is easier to connect under stress). This may drop an opponent by itself. An alternate target is the groin, although this ceases being a hook kick and transforms into a lead snapping front kick.

You may aim for the knee on such a lead kick, but it is a poorer target (although it still hurts).

The rear hook kick is the power kick in JKD (along with the side kick). This kick is aimed at either the knee or thigh. As a kick to the knee, it is most effective when used against a straight leg, as apposed to a bent leg. If used against the thigh, it can shut down the nervous system if done right. A nerve runs up the thigh that is similar in impact when struck to the nerve that runs between the jaw and cranium. This has knocked out folks.

It is hard to damage a bent knee, but it can be done, especially with a side kick. I wouldn't use a hook kick for this, unless the target leg is straight and planted.

The collar bone is a silly target, unless the upper body of the opponent dips below wais level. In such a case, the toe should be used to strike with, as in a savat kick (only with shoes on).

Remember that to throw a proper hook kick, the knee should lead the foot slightly, and on impact the hip should be in same position as if you were standing sidelong to your target, with the whole leg powering through the target. Push off with your leg to return to baijong stance.

Later . . .

[Sphinx]

how come i was told to aim for the knee with a lead hook kick. would u use one if they were unarmed. how effective are shin kicks.

In the film dragon before he was bruce lee in china he had another name, what was it, is this all true.

[Brokenmace]

Bruce Lee's original name is Lee Jun Fan. Jun Fan means "butterfly." Supposedly it is a Chinese girl's name, meant to ward off evil spirits. I don't know if that's true, but it was his name.

Jun Fan Gungfu just means "Butterfly's hard work" in Cantonese. Essentially Bruce Lee's Martial Art, which is how most folks think of it.

There is nothing wrong with kicking to the knee, but I'm surprised you weren't shown strikes to the inner thigh. This is essential. For whatever bizarre reason (maybe just forgetfullness), your instructor isn't showing you, and you should ask him, respectfully, about other striking areas for that kick, as there are at least three: groin, inner thigh, knee. That is in order from most effective to least effective. The knee still hurts, but during an adrenal rush your attacker may not notice this.

Any strike should be aimed at most efficiently destroy one of the Three Legs (respiration, mobility, and sight). If any one of these Legs is compramised, the attacker cannot continue effectively. This is why groin strikes are good, because they take out two Legs at once: respiration and mobility. However, nothing is fool-proof.

Shin/Knee kicks are most effective at the moment which the attacker's lead leg is straight and planted. You can still wound against a bent knee, but you won't break the knee.

Another good kick is used to herass the attacker, but should be used sparingly: the "chicken" kick. This is my name for it. It is a clawing front kick that rakes down the lead leg's shin. This is very painful, and best used with shoes against bare flesh. It is best against minor adversaries, but will slow down even a large man.

All of these kicks are best used upon your attacker shifting his weight toward you onto his lead leg. This is the moment of vulnerability.

[sikal]

Originally posted by Sphinx

In the film dragon before he was bruce lee in china he had another name, what was it, is this all true.

I assume you're asking if the movie was true. I don't know all the details but as I understand it, it was a pretty loose interpretation of his life. I think there were some chronological errors and there was definitely some "artisitic license" used.

I think the "demon" was intended more as a literalization of the types of demons we all have ... Bruce's, in the movie, were depicted as being, literally, a demon. Based on what I've read/heard, I think Bruce's primary demon was his obsession with perfection.

As far as I know, Bruce's back injury was from an accident during weight lifting ... not from the fight with Wong Jack Man. The depiction of that fight with Wong Jack Man is one version of the story ... but not the only one. The only people who *know* the truth about that encounter were the ones who were there. And, of course, there are differences in the telling of the story (even among the people who *were* involved). I think the only thing that is known for certain is that the two did have a fight of some sort ... even the reason for the fight isn't clear cut.

If I recall correctly, Wong's version is (in a nutshell) that he and Bruce met for a friendly sparring match and Bruce kept turning up the juice until it ceased to be friendly and that it never had anything to do with anyone trying to make Bruce stop teaching. But, again, there are other versions ... myths and legends are born in the discrepancies ... the difference between reality and perception of reality. I don't know that Wong's version is any more accurate than the story told by other people ... I'm just pointing out that there are several versions and the absolute truth, I'm sure, lies somewhere between all of the various perceptions.

So ... basically ... the movie was a dramatization ... based on truth ... but not specifically true in various parts. And I think the overall story is, basically, true in one sense or another.

Mike

[StraightBlaster]

A kick to the thigh has never k.o.'ed someone and it never will. The worst that happens from getting kicked in the thigh is your muscle cramps up and you fall down. It only causes pain. You can drop a normal person with a nice powerful kick to the thigh, but a fighter will require many kicks to the thigh in order to drop him. Allthough they will slow down his foot work.

As far as hitting with your instep, the only advantage is reach. Using the lower shin does allot more damage and you don't risk breaking the small bones of the feet.

Kicks to the knee are only effective against a straight leg, so basicly only if your opponent is not in a fighting stance.

Hook kick is the best overall kick and can be used anywhere. Knee, thigh, nut sack, stomach, ribs, neck, head.

The movie Dragon was not very accurate.

Strikes to the collar bone are over rated.

No fancy kicks or flips in JKD other then the sweep kick.

And I assume you are talking about what Bruce called a hook kick, and not what the rest of the world calls a hook kick. This kick is usually called a round house in karate, TKD, kickboxing ect.

What most of the world calls a hook kick bruce called a sweep kick. This kick does very little damage and has very few times when its useful.

[Brokenmace]

First, his name was Lee Jun Fan. Jun Fan was his Chinese name. He was an American, but many Chinese Americans, especially of his generation, possessed both Chinese and Western names. Lee came first, because in both Chinese and Japanese cultures the family name comes first. I'm not fantasizing this stuff. It is verafiable and documented.

Second, you can TKO someone with a hook kick to the thigh. I've seen it. Most folks don't have Incredible Hulk thighs, and having large thighs isn't enough: they have to be conditioned. Even fewer folks have this attribute. Most people, even street fighters (here I'm talking about common thugs), only have average to strong (not necessarily tough) thighs. You can end a fight with a hook kick to the thigh.

Like I said, it only takes one of the Three Legs. Take his footwork, and you've won (unless he has friends or a gun).

Third, the idea that you are likely to break the bones of your feet wearing shoes against a thigh is just wrong. This doesn't happen, and I've made contact with a shod foot against a knee and still didn't feel much pain. In contrast, anyone without a conditioned shin is more likely to stop fighting if harsh contact is made with that bone. The instep needs only a modicum of conditioning before you can kick even hard objects with your shoes on.

Conversely, I've seen a man break his shin with a hook kick. His leg clashed against another fighter's shin, but the break wouldn't have happened if he had used a shod foot. The bones of the foot are small but many, like the hand. They are strong together because of compression, same as a hammer fist.

That's noto to say you should be striking your foot with hammers or something, but given the choice between kicking a mans cranium with my foot or with my shin, I'll choose my foot.

I'm not fantasizing. I've kick many thousands of times, both against sparring with little to no pads, against hard and softer objects, and even missed and kicked very hard objects (like a concrete pillar) more than once. In none of these cases have I injured my instep. In contrast, before my shins toughened up I injured them all the time.

[StraightBlaster]

No one has ever been put to sleep by being hit in the thigh. NEVER. People have fallen and not been able to use thier leg to get back up but this is not a k.o.

If your kick with the instep is blocked by a knee or shin you will damage your foot if your kicking with power. Having your shin blocked hurts but doesn't break your shin like it breaks your foot. All kickboxers that don't use instep protection use thier shin. The bones in the foot are very small, the shin is very big. It doesn't take rocket science to know that small bones break easier. I don't care if you say you have kicked a stone pillar with your foot. It is impossible to kick a stone pillar with power and have it not do allot of damage to either your instep or shin. If you don't hurt your instep kicking hard objects then you have no power at all. Are you going to tell me next that you can punch a stone pillar and not break your hand? Sure anyone could if they don't hit it as hard as they can. But don't listen to me, listen to every kickboxer on the planet (not the sissy american kickboxers that use instep protection).

You have sounded intelligent in the past brokenmace but this is out in left field. I'd put it up with thier with the death touch. Its thats wacko. Big bones are stonger then smaller bones, and the thick, hard, sharp shin does more damage then the small light instep.

Now of course hitting hard objects with the shin hurts allot because the nerves pinched really bad, but don't confuse pain with the ability to cause damage and not break under extreme contact.

[Sifu]

Jun Fan Kickboxing is noted for it's speed in delivering hand strikes and kicks. The hook kick can strike several targets. Let's talk about the lead hook kick. This is done using pendulum foot work and is not a powerful kick. Because of this it should strike more sensitive targets. Depending on how the opponent stands, you can use a lead hook kick to the calf, thigh, groin, ribs, midsection, throat or head. The success of landing this kick produces results and allows for great ABC (Attack By Combination) or PIA (Progressive Indirect Attack).
Finally, Jun Fan and overall Jeet Kune Do is meant for real combat functionality. So fancy kicks are out of the question.

--Straightblaster--
I think he just menat taking someone out of commision not actually knocking them out.

BTW I have been teaching JKD for 9 years.
I have trained with Dion Riccardo, Paul Vunak and Frank Cucci.

[Brokenmace]

Straighblaster,

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I made a mistake in the first post you responded to, but cleared it up in the second. I meant "TKO" not KO. "Technical" knock out, in other words the innability to go on, etc. If you reread that post you will see it.

As for your small bone/big bone theory, a lot of karatekas would probably disagree with you, as they break objects with their insteps all the time. They do this without shoes. The small bones of the instep are bunched together, and when they impact an object they squeeze tight. This is analogous to the cliche about "together we stand, divided we fall." Rope is a perfect example: individual rope strands break easy, but are strong when woven into a rope. Sticks, which are an even better example, are harder to break when bound together. This is an observable fact. And with a shoe on, you are less likely to get hurt, either through nerve damage or bone damage.

Do you imagine that Thai Boxers are the only ones who can kick someone without getting hurt? The shin is not the only striking surface.

It is true that the shin bone is tougher than any one foot bone. It is also true, as you stated earlier, that a hit with a shin bone is likely to hurt more for the receiver.

Using the shin on the groin, while certainly possible, isn't as efficient as using the instep. It is a longer range weapon. Also, if you aim your instep at someone's thigh, I've found that there is a very good chance that your shin will connect on their low shield anyway.

Never mind that in the many Thai boxing fights I've seen, they seem to have a 60/40 ratio of instep to shin use.

The Thai kick is not the only way to kick, nor is it the only safe kick, even along that angle. It is, however, the most powerful kick along that angle. But it does not make other modes of attack obsolete.

But think about your adversary and his likely responses. You have to remember that the chances of a street thug low shielding are actually pretty nil. He's more likely to use his hand/arm, zone, or back off.

BTW, I never said I kicked a concrete pillar with "full force." That would be silly . . . and painful. The kick landed after I passed the power arc, when my sparring partner skipped back. The kick had already slowed before impact.

Respect.

[StraightBlaster]

Brokenmace,

Yes, I missed the tko part.

I got alittle out of line with my death touch/whacko comment. I'm impressed that your reply was not effected by this and was made just as professionally as before. Still working on controlling myself, getting better.

All I can say is that I have had my shin and instep blocked. Both hurt really bad, but when my instep was blocked I was limping for a couple days, definetly caused me more damage.

I have been kicked by both the shin and the instep. The shin hurt me allot more.

As for kicking the groin, I agree that the instep/toes are the best way to go.

I have never seen someone break stuff with thier instep. I have only seen breaking with the ball of the foot, heel, and shin. If you have a link to some video of a person breaking with thier instep I would like to see it.

Anyways, thats my experiences. I guess I have never seen first hand an instep being broken so I can't say for 100%. The breaking instep thing was told to me a few times by kickboxers but since I havn't seen it happen i'm going off of "gossip".

[Brokenmace]

Straightblaster,

I appreciate the calm reply. I've been working on the "calm reply" for years. It takes a whole lot to set me off these days. After all, they're just words . . .

As for the instep thing, we all know any bone can break, but do you think you could ever get a black belt karateka to ever admit he couldn't use one of his weapons to break something?

I remember, back in the day when I took TKD (as a kid), folks were taught to break boards with one of two weapons first: the front kick (ball of foot), or roundhouse (instep). They considered these to be the easiest weapons to break boards with, and I'm talking about Bill Clark's ATA crap!

I'll look for some video, but most of knowledge comes from direct experience. Hell, my sister used to break boards with her instep! And she never could break boards with her fists when she was studying Jujutsu.

One thing I've learned is that everyone's bone structure is different. I have a friend who can punch with the middle two knuckles of his fist. For me, punching with the knuckle between the pinky and index fingers is suicidial! For him it's like hitting someone with a hammer . . .

Maybe some folks just can't take the instep thing.

[Sphinx]

one last question do have to direct a hook kick to the leg, mid section. i csn do the splits and have long legs could i do an effective kick to someones head while they were standing. if not are tae kwon do kicks effective (to the head) if they were being attacked. Will i learn any high kicks wot so ever or any flips.

R there any flips in jujitsu, any kung fu, wushu or wing chun. Im not being stupid or immature i just wondering because there are so many in martial arts films.

What is the best jkd book to buy by bruce lee.

[Brokenmace]

Well, hook kicks (or any kicks) to the head are highly impractical in the street, but they can work given three factors: the attacker is nearly finished or disoriented, the attacker is facing away from you, the attacker is blinded.

Kicks to the head can work apart from these factors, but it puts you at high risk of being tackled or countered. Both cases are bad. use your legs for below the waist, and your hands for above the waist, unless you get a clear shot to the ribs (for instance if you opponent constantly puts his arms up real high, and you know it isn't a fakeout).

Many martial arts practice flips. Chief among them would have to be Wu Shu, which is more of a Communist Party of China morale stunt than a real martial art. Wu Shu was created during the Cultural Revolution to kill the Shaolin style, along with much of China's cultural past (like vases and temples). Communists are real a.ssholes . . .

For this reason, Wu Shu is more acrobatic than martial, but you can use some of its moves if you "spar them into submission."

Other arts practice flips and bizarre kicks. Bizarre kicks are more common, though.

If you like flips and bizarre kicks, you aren't going to learn a highly street effective art. However, if it is what you want, Capoeira is really the best for that sort of thing. This is a Brazilian martial art (supposedly an import from Angola) that contains many dance moves, truly wierd kicks, flips, and other acrobatics. I personally like it over Wu Shu, but there are no weapons.

Some Capoeira stuff actually works to some extent in the street, oddly enough. But that is only because they stress deception as a principle. Good thing, because if they didn't you'd see everything from a mile away.

Finally, a good book is the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. This is not really written by as-you-see-it by Bruce Lee. It is a collection of some of his notes and diagrams that was compiled after his death, apparently with the input of friends and family. It explains to a good extent the philosophy of JKD, and some of the martial principles that express it.

Remember, JKD isn't the martial art; JKD is the philosophy that guides the martial art called Jun Fan Gungfu. Jun Fan is a tool for learning the principles behind JKD, such as economy of motion, flow, and attack-defense.

[terry]

If you get the chance it is worth taking a look at Sifu Inosanto's unpublished version of the Tao of JKD. There are some interesting differences from the one published posthumously by Lee's wife Linda.

T