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  • #46
    akja: I didnt post a timeline, and I wasent knocking anyone. I think you actually posted the same thing I did.

    Others: i was just providing info, and trying to qualify "Bruce's writings." Possibly, he did not write that for anyone's eyes but his own.

    I really doubt Bruce Lee trained and worked out with these other gentlemen BECAUSE they were "karate men" or "tkd men" - probably because he deemed them good and effective martial artists etc. Probably they came out of the experience 'more influenced' then he did.

    When he said those oh so bad things about Karate, i think he is more talking about Karate, the way most people talk about tai chi. How its trained, how its trained, how it is trained. Its the teachers and students etc that make an art not work, or not workable, or not as good as other arts, not the principles and 'techniques' and strategies that make up the so-called 'art.'

    Jun Fan Gung Fu has many high kicks, the reasoning behind training your kicks high is for power and flexibility, Jun Fan Gung Fu fight strategy mirrors that of wing chun: get in range, destroy, dont do anything silly like kick high. Ive studied Jun Fan Gung Fu, much like Bruce Lee studied Karate, if you get my drift.

    Bruce Lee ultimatly was about Bruce Lee. Not promoting his own martial system, or trying to find the perfect, fit for all martial path, he studied for himself, he studied himself. JKD is about Bruce Lee passing on that idea, that attitude, that philosophy. So yes, absorb what is useful, reject what is useless. Bruce Lee, among others, held that all knowledge is self-knowledge. In study-ing karate, and northern praying mantis, and judo, etc, etc, he was one - looking at Martial Arts and Fighting, rather then little individual 'styles' or 'masks' or 'filters' (as he sometimes labeled different arts.) Most of all Bruce Lee was study-ing how Bruce Lee fights.

    Within Bruce Lee's notes, are notes on several systems, several styles and sub-styles, even notes on other individuals, notes on Body mechanics, the differences between different styles etc. He was trying to fiqure out what worked for him, so should we all.

    AP: I was just providing that quote because its so damn cool, specially when you hear him say it "wang!"

    I think I have to do a little work now.

    Comment

    • #47
      yenhoi,

      i hear ya. when i say 'wang', i look like a total wacko. when bruce lee does it... he looks like a smaller, more dangerous wacko.

      Comment

      #48
      Ap,

      Agreed, the forum is for entertainment. To some.

      but I'm that guy that took crappy fighting styles as a youth, only to get bested by people with a couple of years of wrestling.

      So, I have a slightly opinionated view on some things.

      And when I hear people saying "Bruce Lee trained with Karate men, and that's him putting a seal of approval on karate techniques" I can't help but show where all the holes in that logic are located.

      I have trained with guys and said "Ok, come at me sloppy and powerful"..but not because I'm putting my seal of approval on sloppy and powerful. I am just learning to deal with what I come across mostly.

      If I train with a karate man, it doesn't mean I want to learn karate. At all.

      It means I mostly sparred with boxers and wrestlers..and I have some idea how they will react..somewhat.

      But not having trained with this guy in white pyjamas before, I don't know his game. I know what it looks like maybe, but I've never been on the receiving end.

      So, it stands to train with him, and find out how he is easily defeated.


      I agree, this thread isn't about high kicks.. but high kicks are nice metaphor for the totality of Karate to me.. A concept that is outdate and only works under certain circumstances (limited rules, one guy way way better/stronger/faster than the other, to a ridiculous extent, surprise..etc)... and is not a very high percentage movement..


      To me, it doesn't matter if a guy trains Karate, Tae Kwon Do or Duck Soup Spatula method.

      What I want to know his "How does he train?" "How often?" "Against what? "With what?" and "How HARD do they get hit?"


      A tae kwon do man who has only fought tae kwon do men is not going to do well outside the class, against a man with a little wrestling or boxing.

      A tae kwon do man who has a whole room full of friends that wrestled, and consistently spars with them, permitting them to use their wrestling skills to defeat his kicks, will become a much better tae kwon do than the guy above.

      But part of the reason this will happen is because he will ADJUST his game to fit the new threat, since he's doing it in a fighting situation. If he keeps getting single legged, he's going to learn to defend against it..eventually.


      So to me it isn't JUST the style I'm shooting down, it's the way that style trains, and the limitation in the thinking generally present.
      It's only generally present, however. Some tae kwon do guys are great boxers..because they train like boxers, and call themselves "tae kwon do".. Because their is no such thing as boxing, or tae kwon do. Just systems of training for the one Art which is the actual unlimited fighting those systems are training one for.. But the farther they get form unlimited fighting, the worse they are going to train people to fight unlimited.
      But those stereotypes tend to hold true..

      As far as telling someone "your ideas are stupid" being a degradation of the conversation.. well, maybe, if people are timid and afraid to hear someone disagree with them. But I like for another to point out the stupidity of my thinking. It is a favor worth its weight in gold.

      I think saying "that idea is stupid' is a fine thing, so long as the man saying it will offer the useful information of "why" he thinks its stupid.

      That takes the statement from Childish attack, to heartfelt honest opinion, shared openly, and without all the filters of modern PC courtesy bungling the real message.

      (shrug) but you seem to think I'm hostile, or don't like you, or something. Nothing could be farther from the truth. If I didn't like you, I'd probably just not type at all.

      Comment

      • #49
        Because their is no such thing as boxing, or tae kwon do. Just systems of training for the one Art which is the actual unlimited fighting those systems are training one for..



        Do you ONLY train vs what you consider to be "most likely" on the street, as in, large powerful sloppy situations?

        I train to fight bouncers, they are what I will most likely encounter

        Comment

          • #50
          to explain further:

          though I'm shitting on karate and tae kwon do, I'd still rather train at a Tae Kwon Do gym where they beat each other up in fairly unlimited sparring with hard contact and throws/takedowns permitted...Than train at a "boxing" class where they hit thai pads and spar with half contact.

          Even though I really don't like Tae Kwon Do, and have a bad taste in my mouth as far as it is concerned..And do like boxing.

          Because, as yenhoi is saying, and others (apowen, etc)..it isn't so much about the name of the style, but how the practitioner trains, and how close he is willing to bring his fragile, tender body to the truth of fighting. Not the made-up truth of "sparring" as it is done in most clubs today.

          Fighting changes depending on the contact level. Fight at half contact, and you'll do things you'd NEVER do in a full contact fight. If a guy isn't hitting hard enough to knock your head back, you will happily walk through his punches to get to him..no matter how valiantly you try to treat the punches as if they are real..You still won't respect them..so won't learn a technique of respect.

          However, if he starts putting power behind those punches, you suddenly change your style and approach. You can now be faked out by a fake..because the last one hurt, and the fake can now scare you with that memory..

          the number one lesson a person first learns about a fight is learning not to fear being hit. If noone has ever hit you, you can't learn that.

          and I go off the arts I do, because (generally) they are guilty of these training errors.. they often fit their stereotype.. Go into a tae kwon do class, odds are you'll see people wasting time with Kata and Point Sparring. Same with karate.

          Go into a boxing gym, odds are you won't. You'll see men fighting, and fighting hard.

          Comment

            • #51
            No, Yenhoi, I don't only train against the most likely thing.
            I train for the odd rare, dangerous thing: a guy who can punch with precision, power, speed, and in combinations. A wrestler who can pin as well as head butt. Or a guy who is much larger, and that's it..

            When I'm not training to defend against precision, I train to defend against the clumsy, unprecise, most often encountered ego-fighter full of fear and machismo:

            Why spend 99 percent of my time learning to dodge a jump spinning back kick, if odds are, it will never, never happen.

            What will most likely happen?

            Some guy will hit me with a Sloppy overhand right cause "noone talks to him like that, gawdamn it!".. Or against a cheesy half-delivered side kick, or someone who charges me trying to knock me backwards (probably with a sloppy double leg or something, if he's even THAT knowledgable)..

            so I train for these things, when I'm not just sparring and training to fight against guys who know what they are doing.. I train moving backwards feeding uppercuts, so I have an answer to the idiot that charges..or practice throwing the person moving at me with lots of forward energy. Cause a lot of the guys starting fights and causing trouble are not highly trained sports atheletes in top physical condiition throwing slick jab/cross/hook combos.

            Most of them have soft bellys, are hung over from last night, and eat mcdonalds on a regular basis. And when they are mad, they get their "hitter" out and start doin some hittin. And usually that looks like a sloppy over hand right.

            Comment

              • #52
              and to be clear:

              I'm not tough guy. You won't see me on UFC someday. I am not the guy at the gym who can kick anyone's ass.

              The way I'm talking, a person could think I'm saying I'm the guy to be.

              I'm not.

              I just want to be clear.

              Comment

              • #53
                quietanswer,

                tell you what: it's pretty obvious that a lot of this comes down to a difference in communication styles. so what's say we both give each other the benefit of the doubt, metaphorically shake hands, and be friends. yeah?

                Agreed, the forum is for entertainment. To some.
                granted, more can come of it than that. but this thread, in particular, is entertainment. like you said, you can't really know. so it's just an intellectual exercise.

                and circumstances being different, actually training would be more productive and more entertaining.

                but I'm that guy that took crappy fighting styles as a youth, only to get bested by people with a couple of years of wrestling.

                So, I have a slightly opinionated view on some things.
                i did too. and it was a hard experience. wondering whether i'd been wasting my time, etc. i don't think that now, but it was still cause for things to change in my training. not a waste. just a catalyst.

                And when I hear people saying "Bruce Lee trained with Karate men, and that's him putting a seal of approval on karate techniques" I can't help but show where all the holes in that logic are located.
                yeah. except that isn't what i was saying. at least, it isn't what i meant to say. obviously, he didn't put a stamp of approval on karate techniques as practiced. but i think he recognized that below the overly ornate and stylized surface, the principles were sound. keeping your hand cocked on your hip: overly stylized convention. turning your hip into a kick or punch: sound mechanics.

                I have trained with guys and said "Ok, come at me sloppy and powerful"..but not because I'm putting my seal of approval on sloppy and powerful. I am just learning to deal with what I come across mostly.
                makes sense.

                If I train with a karate man, it doesn't mean I want to learn karate. At all.
                and it didn't mean that bruce lee wanted to either. only that he thought there was something there worth investigating. below the stylistic peculiarities. if you don't see a distinction between those two things, that's okay. it's not like you're wrong. personally, i think there is one. but opinions vary.

                I agree, this thread isn't about high kicks.. but high kicks are nice metaphor for the totality of Karate to me.. A concept that is outdate and only works under certain circumstances (limited rules, one guy way way better/stronger/faster than the other, to a ridiculous extent, surprise..etc)... and is not a very high percentage movement..
                well, it can't really be a metaphor for the totality of karate if karate does have and use low kicks. and from what i've seen in shotokan, it does. but that's not really the point.

                What I want to know his "How does he train?" "How often?" "Against what? "With what?" and "How HARD do they get hit?"
                agreed. none of this theoretical discussion has much to do with reality. but i entered into it knowing that it was a discussion of theory. once it shifted to a technical discussion of the value of high kicks, you and i quickly ended up on the same page.

                A tae kwon do man who has only fought tae kwon do men is not going to do well outside the class, against a man with a little wrestling or boxing.

                A tae kwon do man who has a whole room full of friends that wrestled, and consistently spars with them, permitting them to use their wrestling skills to defeat his kicks, will become a much better tae kwon do than the guy above.

                But part of the reason this will happen is because he will ADJUST his game to fit the new threat, since he's doing it in a fighting situation. If he keeps getting single legged, he's going to learn to defend against it..eventually.
                excellent point. i agree.

                So to me it isn't JUST the style I'm shooting down, it's the way that style trains, and the limitation in the thinking generally present.
                It's only generally present, however. Some tae kwon do guys are great boxers..because they train like boxers, and call themselves "tae kwon do".. Because their is no such thing as boxing, or tae kwon do. Just systems of training for the one Art which is the actual unlimited fighting those systems are training one for.. But the farther they get form unlimited fighting, the worse they are going to train people to fight unlimited.
                But those stereotypes tend to hold true..
                again, if you and i were having a discussion about our theories, practice, etc., i doubt we would have disagreed in the first place. what you're saying makes perfect sense.

                As far as telling someone "your ideas are stupid" being a degradation of the conversation.. well, maybe, if people are timid and afraid to hear someone disagree with them. But I like for another to point out the stupidity of my thinking. It is a favor worth its weight in gold.
                timid, i'm not. tactful, perhaps to a fault. but not timid. but i understand what you're saying.

                I think saying "that idea is stupid' is a fine thing, so long as the man saying it will offer the useful information of "why" he thinks its stupid.

                That takes the statement from Childish attack, to heartfelt honest opinion, shared openly, and without all the filters of modern PC courtesy bungling the real message.
                fair enough.

                (shrug) but you seem to think I'm hostile, or don't like you, or something. Nothing could be farther from the truth. If I didn't like you, I'd probably just not type at all.
                well, i don't think that now. but when your first introduction into the discussion is essentially, "why don't you guys shut up and train", then it's likely to take some sorting out.

                just needed to figure out where you were coming from, i suppose. personally, i don't approach discussions that way (unless i'm having a really bad day). so perhaps i tend to misread it when it happens. no big deal. we got it sorted out in the end. yeah?


                stuart b.

                Comment

                  • #54
                  I'm missing filters.

                  Tact is a thing I know about if I want something.

                  If I want something from you (your money, your ideas, your friendship..or just for you to like me..) then I can use tact. That is why we say "Use Tact". Because it's a tool to get something.

                  Fighting arts are about fighting. People do them to cover their ass when they end up a situation where boots are stomping, people are laughing at them, and they are bleeding. All at once.

                  So I tend to be point blank about my opinions in that area.

                  But I don't want a person to be my friend more than I want him to understand that a kicking fighting style, with little else in it, is going to get him killed someday. Because when they were beating my ass in school (or wherever), I would have loved
                  for someone to have given me a similar message, before the beating occurred.

                  but I can't argue with you that I'm a bit terse, and blurt out what I think.

                  But I think that is how conversation should occur. I think people should spend less time caring about "feelings" and more time expressing their own truth without limitation.

                  THEN don't stop there!!! That would **** it all up.

                  Then that person they are speaking with has the opportunity to do the same. And then the first speaker comes back with his.

                  --
                  however, if they do not tell the truth from the start, they never have a chance to truly go through this feeling/learning procedure..because they are caught up in pleasantries and trying not to step on toes.

                  I think most of the problems we have today are greatly in existance because everyone is too afraid to say what they think, for fear of hurting feelings.

                  This is a topic where I try not to let my desire for friends interrupt what I think is true.

                  And to stay with truth, I"ll also point out the weaknesses in my own arguement, or basis for argument..such as "I'm not the tough guy..."...that comment shoots down everything I had to say.. But I still say it. Because my desire isn't to WIN the conversation..though it can appear that way. My desire is to get to the truth of it.

                  --

                  yes, had we started on a different note, you might not think I'm arguing with you. We'd say "Oh, I train similarly" and then we'd be on an agreement note.

                  But agreement is kind of like beating each other off. It gives confirmation...but it doesn't find the weaknesses. I like debate and conversation to uncover my weaknesses (and others, if I have anything to offer them..).. So I tend to like conversations taht disagree..If I'm trying to learn.

                  I also like conversations that agree.
                  --

                  but I guess this isn't a thread on debate.

                  I just feel I have to say something more. I guess. I'm kind of wordy.

                  Comment

                  • #55
                    fair enough.

                    Comment

                    • #56
                      Originally posted by quietanswer
                      Yeah AKJA, I have some other stuff to make up..

                      For instance, I might say "If AKJA actually knew as much about defending himself as he does about who published what, and which toilet paper did bruce lee use: The rough stuff for endurance, or the soft stuff for technique?..then I'd travel across the world to LEARN FROM him.."

                      But as he spends most of his time debating book knowledge and theories that have little to do with fighting, I wouldn't bother teaching him to jab...

                      Because knowing about fighting is not about memorizing long lists of facts about some dead guy.

                      It's about keeping your own ass alive..training for that, and the academics are secondary.

                      However, you will be excellent at chemistry, social studies, and reading. Those are memory/academic arts..
                      I've read the thread, I have 2 exceptions.
                      I only commented on a misquote, it was a misquote with attitude.
                      And you talked directly to me! About what I know. No matter what the threads topic is, its humanly acceptable to misqoute. But don't misrepresent the badass caca without knowing who you are talking to! When it comes to any misrepresentation about the James Lee school, I will take exception. They get totally doged by the JKD community and thats B.S., heres my Sifus site:
                      Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos
                      http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html
                      Latest news coverage, email, free stock quotes, live scores and video are just the beginning. Discover more every day at Yahoo!

                      My site is comin up and then you will know me!
                      By the way "Mr. self Defense" why's ur profile BLANK!

                      Comment

                        • #57
                        First of all, I can't imagine why you would care if your "Sifu's" school gets "Totally Dogged Out" by of all things "the JKD community".. Why would you care...

                        At all?


                        Unless you are doing martial arts to support an image. And when people talk bad about your school, it's more important for you to protect your image..


                        Secondly, I never claimed to be "Mr. Self Defense"... Nor never will. That's a pretty stupid title. But if you read the thread, you'll notice that in several places I admit I'm not the gym badass. Is that a "mr self defense" attitude? If you say so...

                        Thirdly,
                        I'm not too sure why your teacher has made you believe that filling out a Profile will make you a better fighter. Perhaps you could clear that up for us..

                        Fourthly,
                        People can't get to know you from your website. They can only get to know the bluster and bragging you put up in words. The photos you add and associate with yourself. But they won't "know you" after your site is up. If that is what you consider being known, I feel bad for you.



                        But there is an OPTION:

                        You can just voice your ideas, openly and without fear of rejection. You can let people debate those ideas, shoot down the points they don't like, openly and without reserve. Then you can come back with your viewpoint.

                        Instead of getting this pouty "stomping around the house in a big sulk" attitude.

                        No I don't know who I'm talking to! Very good! This is a computer, so I can't see you, nor do I know you!

                        But it really doesn't matter, does it? We're just talking ideas here. None of this is of worldly importance. I didn't slap your sister, rob your mom, or kill your brother...so is any of it really that serious? It's just ideas.
                        Last edited by quietanswer; 12-16-2002, 04:06 PM.

                        Comment

                        • #58
                          Your a FOOL!!
                          You stated that If I new as much about defending myself!!
                          I'm not the badass either, but I practice what I preach! I've been in the Arts nearly consistant since 1973. Don't play with my charactor. I only mentioned my Sifu, so youd realize we've evolved from the James Lee school. As far as your profile goes you must not have anything to worth putting in it, whos the insecure one. Please don't wup me with your keyboard!

                          Comment

                          • #59
                            let me clarify

                            I should have never entered this thread without reading it more closely. Excuse me for this oversight!

                            Comment

                            • #60
                              Lol.

                              Actually akja, from your posts on this thread, it seems you were the person looking to poke at people. What the hell does a profile on a internet forum have to do with anything? Do you actually read every posters profile and determine how you will respond to his/her posts? I usually read peoples profiles after they mention them, Im going to read yours when Im done typing here, I really hope its interesting for all the fuss you are making about profiles.

                              (Maybe you put something in your profile that has to do with what the original poster started this thread about, seems to me in this weird world of web that would make sense at this point.)

                              Comment

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