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unusual fight strategy/mental game in self defense..opinions?

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#1

unusual fight strategy/mental game in self defense..opinions?

Hey, check it. This has been on my mind for a long time, and I'm curious what you guys think of it. Feel free to bash this, or add to it, or whatever.

People always talk about the mental game of a self defense situation.. everyone from Morihei to the movie Braveheart..It's discussed that you should out think your opponent before beginning to out technique him..

What do you suppose about this.. Tying up a guy's mind with a nonsense phrase just before smacking him in the head... For example: you know it's going to be a fighting situation because the individual won't quit losing his head, and he's obviously aggressive, and working it towards a pushing, then punching situation..and you know he won't defuse.

So you know you will have to hit him eventually, and of course, having read the situation, you decide you're going to hit him first and take him out before he goes through the motions of setting up the fight.

How bout before hitting him, responding to something he said to you with "Ufo, Submarine, Sandwich?!".. Then following after a very short half beat with whatever combination/throw/agony-causing-technique that fits his stance/build/environment.

it sounds pretty stupid at first, maybe.. but think about it. When presented with words that don't make sense, your brain:

1: hears it
2: scans what it heard, and finds it doesn't make sense, and says "hey, isn't that nonsense?"
3: Scans it to see if it's nonsense, this means putting the phrase in several contexts to see how it MIGHT still make sense..
4: Decides it's nonsense and says out loud "Hey, what the f..k does that mean, dumbass?!"

Of course, this process all happens (for most of us) really fast and subconsciously.

Later, after thinking about this, I read that Kuzushi (judo term, it represents the act of offbalancing an opponent before throwing him) doesn't have to be a pulling, pushing or jerking motion, but could also be a strike, or an act that offbalances the enemy _mentally_..

Not only that, but each word I chose has some kind of connection to the next.. first I say "ufo".. this is a starship in most people's minds, and an offbeat topic to bring up before a fight.. secondly, "submarine"..this makes a person think of a vehicle again, since they were already thinking of a ufo..and they look kind of similar, frequently..so it's further reinforced. but it still isn't a thinking sentence, so it's still confusing in that respect alone.. thirdly, it's "sandwich".. now, this is a burr in anyone's ass.. I've got you thinking vehicles, then I say sandwich.. what?! not only that, but "submarine sandwich" is a common enough item.. so I've switched you from thinking vehicular submarine to edible submarine, and your brain hsa to backtrack to rethink which I meant.

Again, this all subconscious, by the time the enemy has been hit, anyway..

Do you follow what I'm saying.. I've been in fights..I'm not just dreaming from some novel I read..I wonder what you guys think, especially you fighters..Kuntao? Chad, Stu? Anyone else who fights? Or has? Really, this has been on my mind for a year or so, so I'd love to hear what you think.
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  • #2
    The situation you have described had already escalated to "near-fighting"; in the verbal exchange that precede a brawling situation, and IF the other guy really is not commited to fight, I think that your tactics might work, BUT bear in mind that when you step up to a point, the andrenaline kicks high and that promote the following reactions:

    -for a lot of people it will be difficult to talk: they are shifting gear to combat mode

    -for a lot of people whatever you will say to them it doesn't matter; unsconsciously they are not paying attention to the meaning of your words, but they are closely watching your bodily gesture.

    WORDS, as you said, must be processed by the brain; decrypted and understood; in a fighting situation the fight or flight syndrome will greatly reduce every clear-thinking mode, resorting only to action-reaction.

    BTW, a far more effective tactics is the lost art of spitting...

    I've used it recently (read my thread BARFIGHT, ITALIAN BRAWL)and in the past, and it worked like a charm.

    You are talking to a guy and then...aim carefully and spit him in the face, full force; his natural reaction will be to dodge the spit, then ENTER FULL FORCE AND CONTINUE UNTIL ANNIHILATION, because if he regain his composure now you are dealing with someone very, very angry.

    Comment

    • #3
      I've heard that idea before, quietanswer, of uttering a nonsense phrase to mentally derail them before attacking. I think maybe Geoff Thompson may have spoken of this. Like Underdog said, this might work if you do it early enough.

      The spitting thing is great too, I've seen that before.

      Comment

      • #4
        I think you also need to address which actions may be seen to be a provocation in case Johnny Law gets involved. I have to admit that I like the spitting tactic, but you better be damn sure that you have no other avenue of disengaging yourself from the situation before you attack.

        Comment

          • #5
          I'll agree that the law is a concern. If (I don't scrap..really..not since high school) I get in an altercation, however, and I know I have to hit this guy, just by reading his behavior (or THINK it) I'm going to do whatever I have to to survive.

          I'm not going to be one of the people who were steadily hedging away from a fight only to get surprised and beaten because they weren't in the right mental attitude.

          To fight well, you have to WANT to fight. You cannot have the "i'm trying not to fight" mentality, which is nearly the same as the mentality of being concerned about legal affairs. Well, Maybe I'm wrong, but this is my experience.

          If you are maintaining a "trying not to fight" mentality, and the other guy is steadily building a "getting ready to stomp someone" mentality, I personally think you'll be blindsided and unprepared (no matter how aware you are remaining) when it comes at you.

          Then again, maybe that's a lack of ability on my part.

          So I tend to try not to even consider the law if I have to defend myself. That's for after. Right now, I try to stay in one piece, so I can deal with the law alive, after I've won...not dead, or with a fractured skull.

          I've known some bad people. You really can't think of the law if you're dealing with one of them. If you are totally law minded in a fight, you are very predictable. what you will and won't do is somewhat defined. I say, win the fight and run like hell.

          Comment

          • #6
            Excellent post quietanswer!!!

            That was good! I totally agree. That's why I always say, don't start a fight but make sure you finish one. If someone trys to hurt you, you try to kill them. I rather sit in a prison cell for 10 years than to be layin' in the morgue for eternity.

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            • #7
              The ole mental derail ploy

              Yep, I do remember reading this in an article by or about Geoff Thompson (probably the latter). He suggested asking a question like "Aren't you Barry's mate?" or "Hey, is your mother's name Betty?"

              I'm partial to the Tick's battle cry of "SPOON!"
              -Tony

              Comment

              • #8
                Quietanswer, I'm picking up what you're putting down, I think. But after reading some of Tony Blauer's stuff and talking with my teacher (who used to be a cop), it's essential that you consider the law and let it guide how you react (if you want to avoid possible jail time and/or civil lawsuits). Does this mean your hands are tied? Does this mean you have to wait until a guy hits you before you can defend? Not at all. You have all the right in world under the law to defend yourself. What it means is that you should

                A) never provoke a fight,

                B) if a fight is likely you should look for a way to walk away to the max extent possible. You can still do this and keep yourself from getting blindsided. This is what Tony Blauer's 3 D's are all about (Detect, Defuse, and Defend), in addition to his Closest Weapon, Closest Target theory, and

                C) if there is a reasonable certainty that an attack is imminent you can respond with APPROPRIATE force (and that may mean throwing the first punch/kick, maybe with the spit trick thrown in!) until there's a reasonable certainty that you're not in danger any more.

                This goes against your view Colonie Crusher; if you're 250 lbs. and train regularly, and a 120 lb loser whose had a few drinks taks a poke at you and you slam him on the ground and proceed to pound on him like Igor V. would until he's got a fractured skull and no face left, you're probably gonna go to jail and get your ass sued off, and with good reason. What have you accomplished by that? The only time you're justified doing serious damage is if you can say you feared for your safety or the safety of others.

                My whole point is to not be so scared about the future consequences that you freeze up and do nothing or feel restricted. And I know that a lot of the time fights escalate quickly and you may not have time to think about all the things above. But the fact is we live in a civilized, albeit VERY sue-happy society. If you don't realize that and think about it and train that way, you're setting yourself up for trouble afterwards. That's all I'm saying.

                [Edited by pfsjkd on 11-03-2000 at 10:28 AM]

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                  • #9
                  SPOON!!!!!!!!!!

                  HAH. you rule.

                  -d
                  i agree, colonel. hopefully, neither of us will be in jail, though..how would we possibly log to mousel's forum?

                  Comment

                    • #10
                    pfsjkd: I'm digging you. I think I will be able to have that view point when I'm either a: more skilled b: a larger, bulkier guy.

                    B aint ever gonna happen. I gave up on that dream at 18

                    I'm the 120 pound individual you refer to in your post..well, 10 pounds heavier, but no difference, really. I'm not 200 pounds..and when a 200 pound gets threatening, I don't tend to think I'm going to find a one punch answer. I dunno, my altercations have taught me to do what I can to not end up on bottom. for me, that has been to hit first when hitting looks necessary. most guys think like this about fighting.. it goes
                    step1
                    man A shouts at man B..usually a threat or vicious insult.

                    Man B responds in turn.

                    step2
                    Man shouts again, a little closer

                    Man b responds likewise, in turn.

                    step3
                    Man A shoves man B

                    Man B shoves or punches back,

                    step4
                    Man A punches likewise..

                    and on.

                    i have found my best answer was frequently to fight at about step 2. This tends to throw people for a loop. they were setting it up, and it came at them first. i agree, this may put me in jail if i ever have to behave this way now that i'm a legal adult. but, at my size and weight, fights are pretty serious affairs. I'm no rank beginner..but I'm also not roy harris. Until I am, I feel I have to take an attacker extremely seriously.

                    But this sounds like I'm arguing with you, and in truth, I'm not. I agree with all that you say..I just feel that for my welfare I have to change it slightly.

                    Then again, like i said, I haven't been in a fight since highschool (8 years, almost 9)..and don't tend to behave or hang around places that lead to fighting..I'm also always ready to avoid a confontation. not out of some sense of duty, just because that's who I am. i don't like conflict.

                    so you can assume that before trouble started I would be doing what I could to get out of it. but i'd also be building energy for a violent result. I was a doorman in a fairly seedy bar in st. louis for a year.. I never had a fight, even in some rough, rough circumstances. I'm a good talker..but if it doesn't work for me, I'm afraid I'm going to respond violently..I'm not sure a guy my size can "hold back" or "pull punches" in a fight. at least, not til i fight like my instructor(s)...

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      I don't think we're really arguing either. The way I would handle step 2 if I were Man B, is I would NOT respond likewise. I'm not saying I would turn tail and run, but I would make it obvious to the aggressor and to any witnesses that I did not start this and I do not want to fight. That way, if you aren't able to talk him down, at least you have limited your liability. I know this is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of people. Who wants to get disrespected (especially in front of a girlfriend or buddies) and walk away looking like you got punked out? No one. And I don't think you're about that either. But if it's a choice of looking like a puss or fighting, I'll take the puss way, thank you very much. You never know who this dude is. He may be frickin' psycho with pain tolerance thru the roof, a golden gloves boxer, champion wrestler, etc. If he backs me into a corner and thinks he can slap me around he's gonna get a big surprise. But I am not experienced in street fights and don't really want to be.

                      That's why I mentioned Tony Blauer because this is specialty. He has come up with methods to present yourself as not wanting to fight without letting your guard down.

                      I guess the bottom line in a situation is that if during step 2 you can convince a reasonable person that you feared for yourself or others and you were not the aggressor, then you would be justified taking the fight to them. If you're 130 and an attacker is 220, this is going to be an easy argument. If there's more than one guy, this is an even easier argument. If there's weapons, and you absolutely can't get the hell outta there, there's no argument at all.

                      Comment

                        • #12
                        pfs: word I agree with.

                        in regards to not looking like you are starting the altercation, i read somewhere that hte muay thai guard is great for this.. palms forward, saying "i don't want to fight you" makes everyone think you are in a submissive posture.. fists up, you look like a scrapper.. but the thai guard has the palms going for it..

                        Comment

                        • #13


                          I'd be worried about sounding like an idiot to people around!
                          Just kidding.

                          As always, Underdog has posted the kinds of things I wanted to say...oh well.
                          I hate fighting, but have been in a few. Just like Underdog said, a lot of times your speech will be the last thing you can focus on. But it might work. I've never tried it! But be careful of the guy not being effected at ALL and in turn makes YOU off balance because the phrase went right by him.
                          But I sometimes wondered what would happen if you grapple with a guy and shout out "Get your hands behind your back! Face down!" or some other Cop kinds of things Would the guy (not knowing whether or not you're a cop, comply?)

                          Take care,

                          the SPOON stuff has me rolling on the floor! I miss that show.

                          Ryu

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                          • #14
                            pfsjkd...actually....

                            I'm 190 (usually 194 but I've been sick for a couple weeks). Far from 250. And another thing lets suppose some 120 drunk fool comes at you like you used as an example earlier. What do you do? Show mercy on him? Lets say he's not drunk, or he's just pretending so he sucker you, or let's say even though he's 120 lbs. he can fight, or better yet let's say you beat him up to where he "no longer is a threat to your safety or to the safety of others" and then as your walking away he puts a knife in your back and your in a wheel chair for the rest of your life because you wanted to play "Walker: Texas Ranger" and beat a guy up just to the point where all the cops get there and justice is served.

                            No offense but I think "quietanswer's" mentality is a little more realistic than than yours. Like my father told me when I received my first of many ass whippings in boxing sparring: If your gonna fight...FIGHT! And that advice helped me to become a more fierce warrior in the ring and on the street. You gotta s h i t or get off the pot. Do that or end up in a body bag.

                            Comment

                            • #15

                              Colonie Crusher, with all due respect, I recall you saying you wanted to be a police officer. I have some experience in law, and I can tell you that your mentality may have you winning UFC, but will hinder you from becoming a police officer. A police officer needs to have a clear head at all times, and have immense amounts of self-control when it comes to handling different people. If a 120 pound guy wants to fight you and you have 70 pounds on the guy, and you destroy him, you will not be looked upon in a good light by any court. Plus, you don't have to hurt people for no reason if they are not a real threat. I was dragged into a fight with a 150 pound guy before, and only took him down, mounted him, and threatened a beating. He quit instantly, and no one had to get seriously hurt. That's real skill. Not just in martial arts, but as a responsible police officer as well if you wish to pursue that area of work. So I hope you can see what I'm saying.
                              I do agree that there are times where you have to fight, and end things violently. But there are also times you don't. Beating up a smaller guy for no good reason other than he wanted to fight you is not really impressive.

                              Take care,
                              Good luck in your pursuits by the way

                              Ryu

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