Fancy Trapping

[sikal]

Originally posted by Bri Thai
That makes alot of sense, as long as the person training it understands it also. I am not having a go at Inosanto. He is a great martial artist and an inspiration to me.

Yup. Wasn't implying that you were I just liked the statement and thought it relevant to the discussion and I always try to cite my sources.

I think you're absolutely right when you say, "as long as the person training it understands it also."

I think this is one of the biggest problems in martial arts -- not just in trapping, but with forms and other aspects.

A lot of instructors misunderstand the intent of the material and they try to use it for things it was never intended for. And the students, who don't know any better, take what their instructors say as gospel.

Later, they might come to the realization that what their instructor said was wrong. Some people then say, "Well, since the [insert aspect] doesn't work the way my instructor said, it must be useless." -- Note, I'm not including you in this group since you seem to be sincerely looking for the truth about trapping [at least as it applies to you] rather than simply discarding it out of hand.

In reality, the training tool itself is perfectly legitimate. Unfortunately, when it is misunderstood and/or incorrectly taught, it does, in fact, become useless. But, IMHO, this doesn't mean it should be discarded. It should be explored and researched. Then, if it still doesn't seem useful to the person, they can discard it.

Mike

[akja]

This thread turned out way better than where I thought it was headed. I see trapping in all ranges and if you guys looked at any pics I may have posted, those are the most basic. Very 1 dimentional. The kind I teach from day 1, I don't abandon them, just enhance them. Its about the sensitivity and thats the kind of practice that develops it.

I talk about the clinch a lot because thats where a lot of fights go. With sensitivity its easy to trap from the clinch range and essentially in all ranges.

From grappling I have sensitivity in my legs and pretty much in my whole body. If I never learned to trap, I don't know if I would have noticed that. And in a sense it does enhance my overall grappling ability.

[gungfuhero]

Trapping has a much better chance of working if

1) you actually have propper structure achieved through years of drilling and careful practice

2) you train with intensity and not always in slow motion on a guy acting like a maniquin (sp?).

If you are training pak da by capture, have your partner really try to punch you. Do it slow until you get comfortable, then throw comfort out the window. Where most people, in my experience, fail in their trapping application is when they never got past the demonstration phase of their training. That is true for most fine motor coordination skills.

[Infighter]

The only time trapping gets fancy

is when you are training with a partner. Thats when you get into the elaborate lop sau, pak sau, etc... In a fight there is never going to be a pak sau, countered by lop sau, then a jut sau, double pak and finally a strike. Its going to be at the most, pak sau, strike, HKE.

The Trapping is just a range of fighting you want to get to. All the drills are just different and efficient ways at getting the opponents arms down so you can get to the ****ers neck and go to town.

[sikal]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
If you are training pak da by capture, have your partner really try to punch you. Do it slow until you get comfortable, then throw comfort out the window. Where most people, in my experience, fail in their trapping application is when they never got past the demonstration phase of their training. That is true for most fine motor coordination skills.

Yup. And, I know it's rather cliche, but I think this is what Bruce Lee meant by "the classical mess." People get lost in the training tool and never really learn how to apply it.

Mike

[gungfuhero]

I personally think their is a place for compound trapping, although the degree of skill required to use it should also lessen the number of times you would need it since a good trapper hits with the first trap whenever he can. But their have been times when after the first ostruction a second came up and I used compound trapping. I think the fact that I can use trapping is a result of my training methods (and I've got a few of my own that have improved my game by a lot). You need to continuously put yourself in progressively more uncomfortable circumstances so that your training more closely resembles the actual application of the technique.

[terry]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
I think the fact that I can use trapping is a result of my training methods (and I've got a few of my own that have improved my game by a lot). You need to continuously put yourself in progressively more uncomfortable circumstances so that your training more closely resembles the actual application of the technique.

I see your point. I suppose I could use compound trapping against most guys. But that's not where I set the bar. I tried it on Rich Citrone (6'4" pro boxer), Maurice Smith and Bonkerd Fairtex--and came out and the wrong end of a hit each time. Then I went back and tried to analyze why I couldn't use it. Was it because I hadn't devoted sufficient time to learn it? In my case, no. It was because I wasn't fast enough to use it against a person of that calibre. I think it still has a place, but in my mind it fills out a continuum of force options and is specifically to be used against an opponent of lesser stature or skill. Perhaps there is a niche once in a while where you would use one move, but that's about it against a pro.

Finally, I re-analyzed what my next best alternative was--basically I needed something I could bet my ass on--and wound up with much more basic material. What works for me is to shift to a low line attack when I feel a high line obstruction. (I'm also 240 lbs and have thick shins and heavy low line guns.)

Anyway, the step in the process that I think people leave out is to actually try it out. Not just on an average joe but on the best person they can find. And don't be afraid to throw things out. But also be aware that you may find another place to use it six or eight years down the road.

Respectfully,

Terry

[sikal]

I think that there's an area of "no man's land" between "martial" and "art." The boundary isn't clearly defined and will differ from person to person.

For me, trapping is an integral part of my "martial" side. But I consider a lot of the compound trapping to be "art." Not all of it, though. I have pulled off double lap sao, for instance, against some very competent people.

I think we each have to make this determination for ourselves -- for all our material, not just trapping.

Mike

[gungfuhero]

I feel for you Terry; I'm sure that it was hard as hell fighting those pros. I've fought some people that could shut even my most trusted basics down which is a sickening feeling. On the upside, not everyone is a pro.

I would like to develop my trapping to a point where it would be at a level to work on even a pro calibre fighter. Not as a magical replacement for solid boxing, but I think that trapping can definitely enhance boxing.

[sikal]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
I would like to develop my trapping to a point where it would be at a level to work on even a pro calibre fighter. Not as a magical replacement for solid boxing, but I think that trapping can definitely enhance boxing.

I would recommend looking into Filipino boxing (i.e.: pangamot, panantukan, suntukan, etc.)

It uses a lot of trapping and boxing blended into a great harmony.

Mike

[JKDude]

The single most important rule regarding trapping:
PRACTICE!
Practice more than you would other arts. And practice with your teacher AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Trapping is a sophisticated (yet wonderfully simple) art that is done best with a very experienced partner. If you get lazy or train with crappy people you'll find that the skill degrades very quickly (and you don't even notice).

Oh yeah, try to get hit alot when practicing. ANd throw random movement in to make it more realistic. Trapping can get robotic VERY easily.

[gungfuhero]

Right on Mike! Panantukan is an excellent resourse and in my opinion the bridge between muay thai and jun fan. I especially like the panantukan entries SiFu Inosanto uses for the silat in Majapahit.

I am speaking in more abstract terms here about developing trapping. I think it should be a goal of everyone who "trains" trapping to be able to apply it against many types of fighters even those who are of a high calibre. Trapping is much more versatile and valid than most people think; the variety of entry schemes alone make it an adaptable tactic to say the least.

I agree heavily with the last point having to do with the importance of practice. I train energy exchange drills, work the dummy, use a live partner (preset and freestyle) and integrate trapping into my focus mitt training in both the conventional way as well as my own personal brand of drills.

[sikal]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
Right on Mike! Panantukan is an excellent resourse and in my opinion the bridge between muay thai and jun fan. I especially like the panantukan entries SiFu Inosanto uses for the silat in Majapahit.

Another good vid on the subject is by Guro Harley Elmore (an instructor under Terry Gibson, Dan Inosanto, Chris Sayoc, and others). This video is very well done with a lot of good information in it. The only place I know to order it is from his website at http://www.warriorswaytx.com

(Harley, you can pay me later for the plug just kidding, of course)

Mike

[terry]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
I feel for you Terry; I'm sure that it was hard as hell fighting those pros. I've fought some people that could shut even my most trusted basics down which is a sickening feeling. On the upside, not everyone is a pro.

I would like to develop my trapping to a point where it would be at a level to work on even a pro calibre fighter. Not as a magical replacement for solid boxing, but I think that trapping can definitely enhance boxing.

Guys, I'm not bashing Jun Fan here, but after about 25 years with Guro Dan my mix has turned out to be about 60% Muay Thai. And that is my perogative. When I fight I counter almost every other standup art through Muay Thai (after studying those arts). I'm not saying that is what you should do; I'm saying that is what works best for me.

There are some people with the God given talent--I've met several--to pull off the kind of compound Jun Fan or Wing Chun traps that is referred herein as 'fancy' against a top guy. But I'm not one of them. I could practice until my death and I still wouldn't be able to bet my life on it. And my next best alternative is something I can develop in days or weeks, not years or decades. I believe in paying your dues, but I also appreciate my own limitations and can recognize a point of diminishing returns on my investment.

Sometimes when you take a super heavyweight and try to make him into a bantamweight you just wind up with a beaten up super heavyweight.

Terry

[Kirves]

I have always found trapping hard to do in a sparring match, but in a more self-defence kinda scenario (i.e. where the guy isn't dancing around you in a fighting stance, but where he just comes at you in order to grab you in a hostile manner) they seem to help. Though I must admit, my trapping skills are very basic and not something I'd consider "fancy".