Mixed Martial Arts is NOT Jeet Kune Do

[Ryu (JKD?)]

No he wasn't.



And I am sorry for being so blunt with my response (I am usually more PC than that) But Bruce's main priority was to get you out of the crystilization of following dogmatically to any type of style of sifu. I find it frustrating after all these years that people still continue to treat the JKD experience as something to be followed as only Bruce did. The world is different now, and there are vast opportunities of functional fighting that were not presented to Bruce at the time. JKD has to evolve ...always, or it loses what it is. It HAS to keep up with the times, and it HAS to be functional. Sometimes what's functional is something Bruce hadn't done.

Ryu

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Ryan,
There's an old Buddhist adage about meeting the Buddha on the road.

I think it applies quite nicely here also.

Ryu

[terry]

MMA is not Jeet Kune Do. This is a statement I agree with. The difference? The JKD guy will sit and argue with you until you are blue in the face and still come up with some deep philosophical precedent, rational or irrational, as to why you aren't on the right path. Meanwhile a MMA guy will just loose his patience and tackle you and choke you out.

Give me the latter. It saves time.

Terry

[Davidc316]

Ok Ryu, I have taken on board what you've said.

Personally, I am all in favour of freedom to choose for yourself which martial art you want to study. I'm all in favour of the idea of liberating yourself from living in the shadow of any other person. I agree with these principles that you talk about.

However, I fail to see where the freedom is in having hundreds of thousands of kids being force fed Kali under the false pretence that they are learning Jeet Kune Do- i.e., Bruce Lee's creation.

What would your response be to someone who accused you of being a hipocrite on the following grounds?:

On the one hand you say "one shouldn't give a shit about what Bruce Lee did or didn't study", but on the other hand, like many thousands of other concept-based JKD practitioners you have sheepishly studied Kali simply because Dan Inosanto indirectly pressured you into learning it.

As far as I can make out both the concepts-based and the original JKD camps are equally enslaved in the sense that one camp follows Bruce Lee and the other camp follows Dan Inosanto.

If all concepts practioners truely believed in liberation and following a path of having the freedom to choose and evolve, then WHY do they insist on studying these same old martial arts styles (Kali, Savat etc) over and over again. Where is the variety? Where is the freedom of expression?

I speak from experience as I have attended both concepts-based and original JKD schools and I have a good idea of what goes on behind the closed doors of respected original AND concepts JKD schools.

I was going to close there but I might as well make this a long thread and say one other thing...

I think that it is good to evolve. I think it is good to have a degree of self expression. I think it is good to develope something that is unique to you. However, in order to prevent martial arts classes from becoming chaotic free for alls, we surely need to develope a solid foundation BEFORE introducing the ideas about evolution etc.

Surely you agree on that! Anyway, assuming that you do, the question then is simply this- WHAT is your foundation going to be?

Now, you have to get your foundation from somewhere. There has to be someone leading the way.

I put it to you that the fundamental difference between your path and the path of an original JKD practioner is that you have chosen to follow a path which has been carved out by Dan Inosanto.

But I'm not knocking that. If you want to follow Dan Inosanto, then good luck to you. If you think that's the right way to go, then I say go for it! For all I know you're probably right! But, I just don't think it's right that you should accuse the original JKD camp of living in the shadow of another man, when you are doing the very same thing.

Let's remember, Bruce Lee was the guy who founded the thing in the first place. In my opinion therefore, he offers as good a starting point as anyone.


With respect,

David

[ryanhall]

If I had to be "force fed" something, being "force fed" Kali by Dan Inosanto isn't that bad a way to go. In fact, it's a pretty damn good way to go. Bruce was about what worked--just as todays intellgent martial artists are. If kali works, then why not study it?

As far as being "enslaved" goes, I fail to see how the concepts folks are "enslaved" by Danny Inosanto. Because he teaches them Kali, he is forcing them to follow his and only his path? He followed his own path with Bruce as a guide. Bruce was about evolution. To believe that his stuff today would be anything like, much less identical to what he was teaching 30 years ago is pretty shortsighted and displays a gross misunderstanding of what he was all about.

However, I fail to see where the freedom is in having hundreds of thousands of kids being force fed Kali under the false pretence that they are learning Jeet Kune Do- i.e., Bruce Lee's creation.

This is precisely why Bruce didn't want to name his art. To me, Jeet Kune Do does not mean compound trapping, a dependence on the lead straight, a low side kick to the knee, and a fencer's movement. It is an idea, a concept that is designed to free the practitioner from his or her preconceived notions about what is "right" before trying it and finding what works for them.

Studying Savate and Kali is wrong? Bruce was a fan of both, and he incorporated them into his art that CHANGED DAILY. Bruce studied boxing, fencing, wing chun, and a plethora of other arts/styles. By your logic this is certainly wrong as well.

Bruce didn't pull all of his physical principes out of his a$$. He learned under many people as well as on his own. Does Dan Inosanto lock his students in his academy and force them to follow no one else? If he does, the LAPD would probably be interested in this information.

Overall, a lack of evolution is foolish and everything that Bruce was against. He would be horrified to see that people still claim to practice Jeet Kune Do while never moving on from the base that he gave them. That would be considered just as much of a "classical mess" of students robotically following their teachers as any traditional karate or gung fu. No?

[Davidc316]

Originally posted by ryanhall

Overall, a lack of evolution is foolish and everything that Bruce was against. He would be horrified to see that people still claim to practice Jeet Kune Do while never moving on from the base that he gave them. That would be considered just as much of a "classical mess" of students robotically following their teachers as any traditional karate or gung fu. No?

I agree! Infact, not only with that quote but I agree with everything you have said in your last thread!

Sticking strictly to the base is certainly not what Bruce Lee would have wanted. I'm sure you're right.

But there is a difference between moving on from the JKD based that you have learned and not learning any JKD base at all.

My concern is that all too many concepts practitioners have no Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do base at all. Their base is Kali, Savate, Arnins and Eskrima and the other "Danny Inosanto" styles.

I hate to break off in such an abrupt and patronizing mannor, but talking about this always reminds me of my old art classes at school.

I remember when I was younger I use to HATE Vincent Van Gogh. It's silly but I used to think his paintings were childish eyesores. The colours were all primary and they were nothing like the real world. I just didn't appreciate the guy's work at all.

Then one day my old art teacher showed me something which was a revelation. He should me an old black and white photograph of some old tenament buildings. Then he told me something that nearly knocked my sock's off. It turned out that the photograph was in fact a painting that Van Gogh did when he was younger, long before he started doing all the freaky stuff!

I looked into this some more and I soon found out about another early Van Gogh painting called "The Potato Eaters". And once again, this painting was like a PHOTOGRAPH!!!!!!

Suddenly, I saw Van Gogh in a whole new light. Suddenly I realised that this man COULD paint after all and since that day I can now appreciate some of his more abstract and original work. Ok, maybe I still don't understand his paintings, but I trust that Van Gogh paintings are the works of a creative genius.

How does this related to Jeet Kune Do?

Well, the way I see it is this- the guys who go all out for the evolutionary concepts approach are like students who enter an art class and on their very first day they start painting original abstract paintings WITHOUT ANY REAL KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO PAINT "PROPERLY" AT ALL!

But the JKD guy who focusses on building a solid foundation FIRST is like a student who enters an art class and learns the basics of how to paint properly and realisticaly- just like Van Gogh could.

If the guy with the solid foundation decides to introduce more original and abstract elements to his art at some point in the future, then I will have the highest degree of respect for him. But as for the practitioner with a weak foundation or no foundation at all... for this person I have very little respect.

-David

PS- I could really do with having you on the online forums are Bruce Lee Central. It's a new site and I could really do with having a good talker like you on the scene!

[terry]

David,

I notice you are from Scotland. I have a couple of friends over there that you may have met. Does the name Rick Young ring a bell?

Cheers,

Terry

[Ryu (JKD?)]

"On the one hand you say "one shouldn't give a shit about what Bruce Lee did or didn't study", but on the other hand, like many thousands of other concept-based JKD practitioners you have sheepishly studied Kali simply because Dan Inosanto indirectly pressured you into learning it. "


I said in my other post that I study kali because I find its knife and stickwork functional. I most certainly don't study it because Dan Inosanto wants me to.
I am someone who researches what people give me. I don't accept it as blind faith. Not from Bruce, not from Dan, not from Paul Vunak.
I dissect things these people teach all the time to see how well I can learn it, how well I can perform it under pressure, etc. I've come away with many differences from these men regardless whether they're my "sifu" or not.
I don't believe the straightblast is some ultimate technique for example, I think in order to do it right you must have power behind it, and you cannot "roll" your fists.
I do not think headbutts, knees, and elbows are necessarily fight enders. I think the thai clinch is very vulnerable to a good takedown artist, I don't necessarily think "destructions" will work as good as some say they will. (All of this has come from full contact sparring experience, real fights, and other testing.)

I also study concepts from people that have nothing to do with Dan or Paul or Bruce....or JKD for that matter.
I research a lot of material from people like Sammy Franco and Richard Dimitri, I spend lots of time on adrenaline dump management, pre-fight psychology, first-strike principles, firearms, OC spray, etc.
I also spend a lot of time with judo and BJJ because of the very necessity of being a good groundfighter. Plus I train grappling while defending a blade, pulling blades, on the ground with multiple people, etc.

There is mounds and mounds of realistic, athletic, performance based training out there.
My goal is to protect myself and other people. Not to do "JKD"

So I don't think I'm sheepishly being force fed anything.

Ryu

[Ryu (JKD?)]

I'd like to add also that I do have a Jun Fan background as well. It's a very large part of Paul's JKD expresssion. In his tapes, unfortunately, he doesn't speak on it that much. But there is that foundation.

Ryu

[ryanhall]

Great post, Ryu.

NOTE TO FORUM: Read Ryu's post a couple times, let it sink in. Learn something from it. I would hesitate to tell you to copy what he does, but you could sure do a lot worse.

[Davidc316]

I think this conversation has gone as far as it's going to go.

To the person who asked about Rik Young-

There are 5 million people living in Scotland and although I know several people who have the sirname Young, I don't know anyone called Rik Young. Funnily enough though, I have a great and very close friend called Frank Young.

[terry]

Rick Young is Guro Inosanto's senior guy in Great Britain. I think he teaches both in Aberdeen and in his home town of Glasgow. He's an awesome guy: 22 pro boxing fights, represented GB in the olympics in Judo, fearsome thai kick, just for starters. Really sick sense of humor.

I was thinking that perhaps you should do a bit more research before you take such a strident position. And Rick would be a good place to start.

Terry

[Davidc316]

Strange how I hadn't heard of him. Maybe it's because he's not listed in the Google directory of Jeet Kune Do clubs.

Till now I thought there were only three Jeet Kune Do clubs in Scotland. It seems I was wrong. If he is teaching in Glasgow, as you suggest, then he is certainly keeping a VERY low profile cos I've never heard him get a single mention in any of the JKD clubs I've attended in the past.

[terry]

Rick is the real deal. Grappling is core for him, perhaps like Greg Nelson, he is so talented and hard working in all his training that he exceeds most people in their own areas of strength. That's what makes for an Olympian I guess.

Oh, Patrick Davies is up in Aberdeen. I deal with him mostly on the Muay Thai side, so I don't know what his Jun Fan chops are like.

As far as down in England, I'm not too up on the guys in London, but I know there are a couple of clubs. Another guy, Phil Collins, lives down near Dover. He's a cage fighter now. Um, watch out for his Thai Kick. Sadly, one of his local training partners, Collin Sheredan, who was really good BTW, died from steroid abuse. He was a great guy and an incredible fighter. I was very sad to hear of his death.

Terry

[Bruce_Fan]

Good points all

Hey David,

You do make good points. I do disagree with your assesment of Dan Inosanto, however. I admit that I have never met the man but it seems like he is dedicated in preserving Bruce's teachings and philosophies in the Martial Arts.

"To Call JKD a style is to miss its point entirely," is what Bruce said. MMA fighters might not be doing JKD but they are very much practicing the SPIRIT and Philosophy of JKD, whether they like it or not.

I DO agree with you that someone who calls himself a JKD person SHOULD BE familiar with the concepts and techniques Bruce introduced. Sticking to those techniques as the only truth and doctrine, however, is going to get you into that famous "Classical Mess". Any JKD teacher, in my opinion, should be familiar with these techniques.
The basis of some of these concepts will never change due to the laws of physics. The FOUR ranges of combat may go out of fashion at some point, but the reality of the matter will never change.
I really like Bruce's quote about Human beings as "Dry Land Swimmers."
Unless people develope extra arms and legs, or start flying around like in these current idiotic Hong Kong movies [Crouching fat man, Hidden Lizard] , practical fighting is not going to change all that much.

That's just the way it is. Unless human beings change drastically, the essence of fighting will not change much.

Intercepting an opponent, learning the 5 ways of attack, the four ranges and so forth are concepts that all JDK teachers should be familiar with. I Do agree with you that there should be a foundation of what Bruce taught, but to just stick to that is to present a crystalization and a style: And JKD certainly is not just a style.

Bruce_Fan

Ps. I like your site. I have a few names you can add to your list. I'll email them to ya later.