Sidestepping in Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

[Nick]

Okay, I've greatly enjoyed the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Definitely the best info on the style comes from the master himself.

Anyway, on sidestepping, he said to drag your foot sharply forward and to the side. Do I pivot on my other foot or move my other foot with it? Also, is sidestepping practical, or is parrying better?

Later...

[auto]

Yeah I'm back

This is not aimed at you Nick. As far as sidestepping is concerned. The truth is that you don't drag your feet-you actually slide it with the ball of the foot barely touching the floor(think-like a dancer almost)light,extremely fast footwork. Also, no you don't pivot the other foot-it slides up behind the front foot maitaining a medium distance between your feet. The reason for moving the foot forward and to the side is because a blow is delivered with the step and the momentum is forward (you use sidestepping to avoid a blow not sidestep just to sidestep). For example, the 'shift', standing right side facing- your opponent(standing orthodox) throws a straight left, you sidestep right while throwing a straight left body blow under his armpit(his left will go over your left shoulder). However, not everyone can pull this kind of stuff off. It requires speed and quickness(they are not the same-one is acceleration and reaction time-the other is speed of delivery). Sidestepping is very practical but is not 'better' than parrying. Which one you use depends on the situation or you can parry while sidestepping or leave both hands free to do damage.Remember, one hand attacks the other 'checks' and vice versa.
I studied back in the mid to late 70's at the Filipino Kali school in Torrance and contrary to what many will post here, My Si Gung Bruce did not take 10 arts and put them together to form JKD. And I have also noticed that he is not given credit for his grappling skills. Bruce studied and anylized almost every art known to man-including many ancient grappling arts-and knew many of the illegal holds that were barred from grappling. We practised grappling all the time but with functionality in mind. Putting someone in a position where he could not bite you, gouge you, rip your testicles etc.--you get the picture. As you continue reading/studying you will notice ranges of combat mentioned in his Tao. Kicking range, punching range, trapping range(including knees and elbows), AND grappling range.
I visited this forum to see where my precious art has progressed to and to be honest, it's disappointing to say the least. Ninety nine percent of the posters here have no clue what JKD is and when you try to explain you get flamed(like children). It reminds of Christians. ONE Christianity--1,500 denominations--and they are all right and don't agree on anything. I get the impression that most are just computer geeks who study a bit of martial art and know it all now-never really having had a REAL streetfight.
Nick, you can round out your reading by looking into some books by John Little he has a Bruce Lee library. I've read them and they are not bad. They complement the Tao. Also, my buddy Larry(Hartsel) has written a few grappling/counter grappling books. I don't know if they are still around though. You have to search. There's also Bruce Lee's Fighting Art, however, be warned, it was just a flashy book written for the public with some funtional stuff in it. During practice we rarely used high kicks.
I enjoy my privacy so I don't give out my name. But any other students out there who were there at the time will remember "flat chest" (my Si Fu always said my arms were too big for my chest). Take care.

[swan104]

Re: Yeah I'm back

Originally posted by auto

I studied back in the mid to late 70's at the Filipino Kali school in Torrance and contrary to what many will post here, My Si Gung Bruce did not take 10 arts and put them together to form JKD. And I have also noticed that he is not given credit for his grappling skills. Bruce studied and anylized almost every art known to man-including many ancient grappling arts-and knew many of the illegal holds that were barred from grappling. We practised grappling all the time but with functionality in mind. Putting someone in a position where he could not bite you, gouge you, rip your testicles etc.--you get the picture. As you continue reading/studying you will notice ranges of combat mentioned in his Tao. Kicking range, punching range, trapping range(including knees and elbows), AND grappling range.
I visited this forum to see where my precious art has progressed to and to be honest, it's disappointing to say the least. Ninety nine percent of the posters here have no clue what JKD is and when you try to explain you get flamed(like children). It reminds of Christians. ONE Christianity--1,500 denominations--and they are all right and don't agree on anything. I get the impression that most are just computer geeks who study a bit of martial art and know it all now-never really having had a REAL streetfight.
Nick, you can round out your reading by looking into some books by John Little he has a Bruce Lee library. I've read them and they are not bad. They complement the Tao. Also, my buddy Larry(Hartsel) has written a few grappling/counter grappling books. I don't know if they are still around though. You have to search. There's also Bruce Lee's Fighting Art, however, be warned, it was just a flashy book written for the public with some funtional stuff in it. During practice we rarely used high kicks.
I enjoy my privacy so I don't give out my name. But any other students out there who were there at the time will remember "flat chest" (my Si Fu always said my arms were too big for my chest). Take care.

Thats an interesting post Auto. I have to say I am one of those "computer geeks" who enjoys and loves to study martial arts! I've never been in a streetfight before in my entire life. To be honest, the idea of one scares the sh*t out of me! I do however, like to study JKD and the martial arts. My lack of experience is why I try to stay out of a lot of the debates that go on here.

However, after studying it for a while, I may still have no idea what JKD is. However, that will not stop me from training, studying and learning. I think, the minute we say we know it all, that is when we stop growing.

Just my humble opinion on the whole thing!

Steven

[auto]

I agree totally

Whenever we say we know it all-that's when our ability to learn/develop declines or stops. It's good that you avoid streetfights. You suffer a lot of injuries(some which come back to haunt me now in my older years) and eventually you get caught and locked up for "public disturbance" or "assault".
As for the "geek" thing- it wasn't meant as an insult, just an observation/perception as to what I have gathered here so far.
Unfortunately, one day you may come across a 'fight' that you will not-be able to avoid-so it is better to be prepared. Also, post to your hearts content. Lack of experience has no bearing on things that require "common sense". Guys like Akja are always willing to give an honest answer with out all the "hoopala".
One last thing, JKD...My Si Fu Dan told me this. "JKD was a word given by your Si Gung to the way he fought. To him, the highest level of combat was to be able to score without blocking or parrying... to intercept the opponents thrust and to score with your own. In Catonese this is pronounced Jeet Kune Do. The Tao of Jeet Kune Do means the way of the stopping fist or the way of the intercepting fist. Later he regretted giving a name to his fighting way because it was limiting and described a style when he was only looking for the roots of total combat which cannot be named because it is alive and always changing." My Si Fu also said that JKD later was used by him and Bruce to describe anything that was cool or fast or tasted good-just anything in life that was great and positive. You see, JKD was not a compilation of different arts, it was a way of living for Bruce... always positive always looking forward always making others feel great about themselves always changing....alive. The byproduct of all this was to take his combative art to it's highest level...FOR HIM...what he taught others was based on their abilities and attributes. If you were a wrestler he didn't change that, he only expounded on the base that you already had built. If you were a boxer, you were taught how to make it more functional etc.
Bruce's skills were phenomenal. I saw him at the Long Beach convention center in the 60's. He picked people/other martial artists out of the audience and told them where he was going to punch them and they still couldn't block them. He told one guy to throw a punch at him whenever he felt like it-he beat the guy to the punch everytime with a deflecting finger jab. Simply amazing skill level. I will NEVER take anything away from my Si Gung... never.

[dragonboy]

hi

auto... its great to hear from someone who saw bruce, and actually witness his great speed and power. I am by no means a genius on the topic of what bruce was all about, but i liked what you have to say. that was my impression, that its not where you come from (style) but how you use it that counts. like the saying " its not what you say, but how you say it". I am from the boxing school, my father being a street fighter have learned alot about the pscycology of real combat. so if you look at the people who studied with bruce came from all different styles, but gained " functionality". if bruce thought karate was useless why would he spend time with joe lewis, or mike stone. as he said we all have two arms and two legs , but its how we use them to the maximum of their efficiency right...? any comment...? my cup is empty.

[auto]

You are dead on Dragonboy. It is good to hear from a person who has understanding instead of the typical "no you are wrong and I am right" type of attitude encountered here. Keep on training bro-take yourself to the limits

[dragonboy]

absorb...and disguard

thanks for the comment, as bruce said its the journey not the destination....in my life i continue to absorb what is useful, disgard what is useless, and make "life my own"..... cheers

[gungfuhero]

Auto,

If you don't mind, could you let us in on some of those grappling tactics? Also, what was it like training at the Kali Academy? Any stories or insights will be much appreciated!

[auto]

Really??

Where do I begin? Well the 'concept of JKD was to be able to 'fit' in with your opponent, to be able to 'fit' into all ranges of combat so therefore we trained that way. Grappling, let's take an example of your 'typical' armbar. Once that weapon is taken away from your typical BJJ'er he doesn't have much else. A good example is the match a couple of weeks ago where the Russian pounded the Brazilian into the ground. The BJJ'er kept trying to gain control of the arm and when that was taken away--nothing. In a street situation and arm bar will get you nothing more than a chunk of flesh taken out of your calf or your inner thigh. A mount will end up with a missing finger(when a guy grabs your arm with both hands and bites) or a missing eyeball(just as a note, the correct way to take an eye is push in on the lower outside corner of the eyeball-if you don't belive me, push on your own eye slightly below where the eyelids come together) or many many other things. So the better method was to try and get the opponent down and facing away from you while thumb locking/breaking and locking the legs. I know this is not always possible but it is what we strived for.
Training was a little different from your typical dojo. There was music(sometimes rock sometimes filipino sometimes jazz and more) sometimes it was just a drum beat. We always stretched and warmed up before training(usually with music). The training is too many and too varied to explain in one paragraph but here are some of the things we did. Leg stretching witha pulley setup, heavy bag training, speed bag training, focus training, shield training, full contact kali training(sticks), Knife training, bangkaw training(long filipino stick), then there was multiple opponent training, one on two or more, two on four etc. alleyway training, fighting with your back to the wall, fighting your way to the 'other side' , mental training(pschological), reaction time training, broken rythm training, environement training--this is only part of it so far--feinting training, there was also your own favorite technique or move which we called Queen's move(or was it kings move? Don't remember) Um... I'm trying to remember more...lets see, set up trainig(setting your opponent up with little irritating blows), rim shot training(where you hit your opponent in the arms and legs) Damm!, there's a whole lot more but I just can't remember right now. Um... we always bowed to our Si Fu and always ended bowing to the picture of our Si Gung.
Oh yeah, here's one, you want a story. I loved chi sao(sticky hands training) and I was practicing with a girl( yeah we had chicks in our classes). I slipped inside her fook sao and palmed her breast. I said "oops". She slapped the sh*t out of me Man, I don't even remember her name,she was cute though. I do remember that we entered her in a 'tournament'. She would close the gap on the other girls, trap them and then score with a blow of her own. After a few of these, she was disqualified for--get this--"slapping". It was ok though, because we knew that she kicked their asses. I don't know what else you would like to know but at least it's a start. Describing grappling moves on the internet is a little difficult. Finding a good instructor would be a better idea. I saw a post by Tim Tackett, if it is him I don't know. He was training people in his back yard. Maybe he still does. Drop him a note.(He lived in Redlands)

[gungfuhero]

In your experience, what pins/ground positions were emphasized at the Kali Academy as far as the grappling went?

[auto]

How are you doing GungfuHero? I'm not trying to be a jerk but as I said, it is difficult to describe grappling on a screen. However, I'll try. Our grappling training wasn't just getting on the ground and 'going for it'. There was a 'flow' to it. A type of 'entering into grappling mode'. The problem with description is for example, if I say, a pak sao to a neck crank(note:neck cranks leave your 'balls' exposed), unless you have studied Jun Fan or even Wing Chun, you wouldn't know what the hell I was talking about. Also, during the 'entering' we would use anything, hair, shoulder,hip, a frontal hand choke to the throat while throwing, palms to the nose(or even two fingers in the nostrils while tossing etc). Things not normally done in typical training. Then, most people don't understand that "trapping" is very sophisticated. In fact you don't even see it in NHB matches. You can make a person look very silly if you are skilled at it. So, for example, a shin kick, 'bridge the gap', to striking, to trapping, to take down. What you do on the ground depends on what you want to do. Damage the guy really bad?(smashing the groin,throat, eyes, biting off a member etc.), control a person till help comes? (leg locks with spreads, kneeling on one arm while controlling the other[opponent facing away], joint locks etc.), kill him? (spinal elongation, crushing larynx, weapon use etc.), not hurt a person who won't stop attacking you? (choke out, knock out[blow to back of skull-very dangerous though] etc.). I know you want something more specific as far as pins are concerned so here is an example, after gaining position on your opponent, a rear leg step over toe hold with a wrist lock or thumb break hold. No way he can get out of this one and nothing of yours is exposed, but how do you describe a hold like this on a screen? You need a good instructor to "show" you.
There was very little "shooting". Shooting is the 'moment of weakness' for a grappler. Shoots can also be avoided quite easily, especially with quick footwork, and leave you open for some pretty bad offensive techniques(I'm not talking about punches either). I once saw a man get stabbed in the side while trying to take a guy down. He didn't even see the knife come out because he was looking down.
Here are some examples of a few techniques we practised. Arm blast to hair pull while driving his face into the ground to arm lock, arm blast to rear choke hold, foot pin throw to a leg lock/toe hold or sitting leg lock or spinal stretch etc. ,forearm smash to back throw to leg lock leg spread or ankle break, shin kick to finger jab to pak sao to rear strangle hold take down, jut sao to double arm wrap around to head butt to toe stomp push down to groin smash, lop sao to wedge or pak sao to arm lift to side choke(arm pinned to side of head) to semi takedown, nose palm to guillotine(has to be done quickly or your balls will get smashed), groin levers, reverse full nelsons( can pile drive with this one)etc. These are just simple techniques. Also, sometimes you may find yourself on your back with the other guy in 'mount' so we had to be prepared to get out of it using any way possible-- eyegouging, biting, hair pulling, pinching sensitive areas, kneeing the back while bridging( top keep him off balance while escaping)--you know all the 'unfair', 'illegal', 'dirty' tactics. But hey, it beats getting a "beat down".
This is just a fraction of what can be learned. But like I said before, it is very difficult to describe grappling on the internet so I am sorry if this doesn't really answer your question

[gungfuhero]

Auto,

Thanks for the reply, and I'm pretty sure I understood all the stuff you wrote. I've been involved in Jun Fan and Kali for several years (we share a Sifu) and I can appreciate how difficult it can be to try and express sophisticated tactics in words. The toe hold pin was very well described though (I believe it is the same demonstrated by Chris Kent in Sifu Inosanto's book "Jeet Kune Do: the art and philosophy of Bruce Lee").

I guess I am wondering about what hold downs (head locks, straddling or kneeling on your opponent for controling, striking, locking or maiming) were emphasized at the Kali academy? I've read that Sigung Bruce investigated Judo and Wrestling (both emphasize hold downs) and I wondered what part, if any, they had in the Kali academy curriculum.

[auto]

Which Si Fu are you referring to? Dan, Rick or a decendant?
I remember when my Si Fu wrote that book(photographers came in to film us). I believe there is a portrait of us in there or it may have been a later book, I'm not sure. I believe he wrote two or three more books but I left a bit later in late 1980.
Yes it is true that my Si Gung looked into Judo(his good friend was champ at the time) and American wrestling. However, it didn't stop there. There was also ju jitsu,aikido, greco roman, pankrias and a host of other grappling/joint control arts. He took what he liked, altered it and used it. Thats why you will find thumb/finger control mixed in with ground control mixed in with throws mixed in with blows mixed in with leg/ankle locks/breaks. The man was a genious when it came to combat. So yeah, they both had a great influence in our training. By the way, who is teaching Jun Fan in your area?

[gungfuhero]

Auto,

I'm referring to SiFu Inosanto. I am an apprentice instructor in Jun Fan and Kali in his organization. When we do go to the ground, in Jun Fan, we often have a lock started or a limb isolated (like after catching a round kick and moving into an ankle lock), but sometimes we go chest to chest or knee on chest to pin for striking, locking and choking. The headlock is used as well.

What got me interested in this particular subject is how well judo pinning tactics fit with Jun Fan. While Sigung Bruce Lee's movies aren't always the most accurate representation of his art, his fight choreography with Kareem reflected, what looked like to me, part of a judo pinning combination that I've learned. It really made me want to take a closer look into Sigung Bruce Lee's investigation into Judo, wrestling and Jiujitsu.

[swan104]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
Auto,

I'm referring to SiFu Inosanto. I am an apprentice instructor in Jun Fan and Kali in his organization. When we do go to the ground, in Jun Fan, we often have a lock started or a limb isolated (like after catching a round kick and moving into an ankle lock), but sometimes we go chest to chest or knee on chest to pin for striking, locking and choking. The headlock is used as well.

What got me interested in this particular subject is how well judo pinning tactics fit with Jun Fan. While Sigung Bruce Lee's movies aren't always the most accurate representation of his art, his fight choreography with Kareem reflected, what looked like to me, part of a judo pinning combination that I've learned. It really made me want to take a closer look into Sigung Bruce Lee's investigation into Judo, wrestling and Jiujitsu.

By Judo pinning technique, do you mean the scarfhold near the end of the fight with Kareem?

I'll have to watch that again!