Who did Bruce lee actually fight?

[RobertG]

Originally posted by WaTEr
I challenge all of you who say bruce lee was not anything less than what penocde had to say cuase its all true. Come find me and i'll beat your ***.

I hate teenagers.

[RobertG]

Originally posted by Pencode
[Of course someone out there will start with their "Here we go again with Bruce the superhuman"... ]


The other problem with your thinking is that Martial Art is not about power and control, hence the name. It is about self defense. Chinese against the Manchus, Japanese used karate to defend against their oppressors. These were the reasons for the creation of the "empty hand arts". If you yourself are not training "all out", then what will happen when you encounter a true life and death situation? Use your control? pull your punches?

Ummmm, no. First off, Karate was developed in Okinawa. The claim is that it was developed to defend themselves from their Japanese oppressors. This is pretty preposterous seeing as a karateka is going to really be able to do much of anything against an armed samurai. The weapons we see in Okinawan karate were likely the emphasis until the late 1800s, and even then, seeing as Okinawa remained occupied by Japan, you can't claim their karate was a military strategy.

Chinese against the Manchu? Yeah, real good example there Pencode. Last I checked the Manchu's conquered China. So apparently Chinese martial arts didn't do much good there. They were especially ineffective against the Mongols. And the British. No, the "empty hand arts" are rather modern phenomena. Until recently (historically speaking) people carried weapons. Empty hands suck against swords, knives, axes, arrows, spears, clubs, chains, sticks, etc. Not surprisingly, in regions that have only recently come under a Western idea of civility, we see a heavy emphasis on weapons. Hence, in the Phillipines and Indonesia weapons are a major or the major focus. In Japan the unarmed arts were only recently refined, that is in the last 150 years or so. Until then it made no sense at all to become an expert at aiki- or ju-type arts since weapons skills were far more valuable. I am very skeptical that elaborate striking arts were commonplace until the last couple of centuries--people would have learned weapons first and foremost and not been without one. Sure, in the movies peasants learn kung fu to defend themselves against the evil imperial forces and whatnot. The fact is that the unarmed kungfu practioner would have been quickly impaled on the spearpoint of some government soldiers had he tried to be a badass. And don't think those Shaolin monks were charging out to battle against Mongols without weapons. Oh wait, maybe that is how Genghis Khan killed them so easily.

Oh yeah, and Bruce never fought anyone.

[WaTEr]

Thai bri,

sad little twat

Thats the best you've got?
if im a sad little twat, then what are you? if i had to guess your some sad old women in a mans body. Cause the way your argue makes you sound slike a women. yes, back to my point find me and ill kick your a**. ohh and yes thats a challenge.

[WaTEr]

you know what i hate old unwise men...sorry more like boys.

[Pencode]

You know Robert G, I do not know how old you are and I am not going to insult you but I am hoping that before you get too old you will shy away from ignorance. I stick to what I said before about man not finding out about things before making statements that are not true or passing judgement upon others.

I will not answer everyone of your statements because I figure you have enough intellignce to find out for yourself. So here you go...a few quotes.

"Indeed, Escrima encompasses the entire specturm of weaponry and is a most devastating empty-hand art to boot. So devastating, in fact, that the .45 had to be invented durintg the Spanish-American War because a .38-caliber hand gun proved worthless against the Moros of the Southern Philippines, whom the Americans were trying to colonize( in the name of Manifest Destiny) after haveing been granted the islands as reparation from Spain."


"Okinawa had always experienced problems between rival kingdoms, but in 1429, the kingdoms were united and in order to maintain this unity, a decree was issued which banned possession of all weapons. This seemed to work fairly well for almost 200 years, however, in 1609, Okinawa was, without much resistence, conquered by the rulers of the Satsuma Domain of Kyushu. Of course, there was no incentive for the new rulers to permit the Okinawans to own weapons and they went even further by forcing them to check out their farming implements (which could double as weapons) each morning and return them each evening.

Without weapons to defend themselves and their families, the Okinawans began to develop the art of empty-handed combat in earnest. It was taught and trained in secret through the beginning of the eighteenth century. Much of the training was done at night while the oppressors of the Okinawan people slept and therefore, the practioners trained in the sleeping garments (the predecessor to the modern karate "gi")."

"Karate evolved in the Orient over a period of centuries, becoming systematized in Okinawa in the 17th century, probably by people forbidden to carry weapons"

"He was also called Bodhidharma and was known to the Japanese as Daruma Daishi. His arrival in China is dated about 515-530 A.D.Upon Tamo's arrival in China,he found that the Canton Warlords had disarmed the general public which left them completely defenseless against marauding bandits and other warring factions."

"This resulted in defection of the monks from the monastery who emigrated to southern China and Okinawa and began the teaching the part of the full system which they liked best."

[Pencode]

Here are some more quotes.

"Sakugawa soon started to teach the Chinese hand way in Okinawa. Combining what both his teachers had taught him, he structured a training system. This made him the first Okinawan teacher of Tode. Many of his students rose to greatness. Among them were Chokun Satunku Macabe, Satunuku Ukuda, Chikuntonoshinunjo Matsumoto, Kojo, Yamaguchi ("Bushi" Sakumoto), Unsume, and Sokon "Bushi" Chikatosinumjo Matsumura"

"Many years later Bushi Matsumura studied with a Chinese trader named Chinto. It is believed Bushi Matsumura created the kata Chinto after his teacher from the movements he had taught him."


These were my favorite fighters.
"The ancient Greeks, already practiced a form of unarmed combat by the time the first Olympiads took place. Pancratium as it was called, was a form of wrestling in which almost anything was allowed" Note: almost anything. Greeks and Romans were crazy.

"From ancient times, Chinese hand to hand combat has been divided into kung-fu, which later became taikyoku-ken and jou-fu which developed into ryuku-ken.
Kun-fu invloved the use of kicks and thrusts; jou-fu concentrated on close grappling and locking techniques"

"No one knows when kempo entered the Ryukyu islands. It is possible that one Sakugawa of the city of Shuri, travelled to China with the purpose of bringing kempo back to his home country.
It is also possible that envoys and merchants taught the people of Shuri, and techniques were then passed down from person to persons.
The Ryukuans did not learn the original style shao-lin-ssu kempo. They assimilated techiques from here and there, and by creating their own, developed a very characteristic Okinawan style, or Okinawa-te"

"Karate History
Like most martial arts, Shotokan karate has its roots in ancient China, from where it was brought to Okinawa, then to Japan, and then to the rest of the world. "

"Initially, karate was written with two Chinese characters meaning Chinese hands, Kara being the major province of China, and Te meaning "hands." Gichin Funakoshi changed the first character from Chinese to empty, thus forming the modern term for Karate - empty hands"

"As legend has it, the evolution of karate began over a thousand years ago, possibly as early as the fifth century BC when Bodhidharma arrived in Shaolin-si (small forest temple), China from India and taught Zen Buddhism".

There is a lot more but I will leave it to you to find out for yourself.
This is not a put down or the like. Only something to help you open your eyes and to stop disagreeing with people just to disagree.

[WaTEr]

Good deal . me like you

[toe-hold]

Originally posted by WaTEr
I challenge all of you who say bruce lee was not anything less than what penocde had to say cuase its all true. Come find me and i'll beat your ***.

oh what maturity, how old are you 7, I wouldnt recommend saying things like that on this site there are plenty of people who could rip you to shreds.

[Pencode]

Hi Jukado1,

You are welcome. As far as Joe insulting, I think it would have been better for me to say that Joe said Bruce was not all that...even though earlier in his career he said the complete opposite. Also, I don't consider Bruce to be super human but I do admit that he was an exceptional person. The only thing I do here in this forum is relay information that I have come across or collected over the years. However in doing so(quoting others) I am considered a worshipper or disciple of Bruce...or that I am "privy" to info that others do not have(there are others that have this stuff too, maybe they don't share it for fear of being shot down also). To me, Bruce was the most influential person in martial art...at that time...he changed the face of martial art to come for a very long time. He was far ahead of his time much like other people who were innovators,creators and inventors.

[Cadden]

"I challenge all of you who say bruce lee was not anything less than what penocde had to say cuase its all true. Come find me and i'll beat your ***. "

What's your address, tough guy.

[M@T]

Originally posted by WaTEr
I challenge all of you who say bruce lee was not anything less than what penocde had to say cuase its all true. Come find me and i'll beat your ***.

You sad bastard. Internet threats are the lamest threats in the world

And what kind of threat is that anyway. Insult my idol and i'll beat you up. Its laughable. No one who was really hard enough to make a threat like that would actually make a threat like that.

Post your address and see if you get any takers. The Gracies did it so I see no reason why you cant.

[jukado1]

Pencode, thanks for the comeback, i think were on the same page about Bruce, we just say half empty, half full. i totaly agree that Bruce helped to take martial arts fighting to new levels by sharing his princaples and theroys, many things that we now take for granted, were unherd of for most martial artest pre Bruce Lee. as far as Joe Lewis on Bruce, Joe is honest and outspoken, when asked about Bruce, Joe answerd as a fighter about a fighter, once somebody asked Joe about working with me and Joe said sparring with me was like doing bag work, But the bag had better movement, like i say, Joe can be honest. (darn it). again i've trained with Joe and never heard him say a bad word about Bruce, but he has always to my knowldge given Bruce credit for what he learned from Bruce.

[RobertG]

Pencode I'm afraid you aren't capable of insulting me, so don't worry about it. Sorry, I'm a scientist, and as such, I need evidence that stands up to scientific standards. You've yet to provide any of that. Things like "legend has it..." don't exactly prove anything. Nor do quotes without sources. If you were one of my students I'd flunk you for improper citation--or rather lack of citation period.

As for the Phillipines, there is a long thread about this in the FMA forum here. But the bottom line is that they did not beat off people with guns using just knives. You can read that thread for the appropriate sources. You karate quote is the typical karate mythology. Again, I ask you--is it at all logical to think that farmers (and most of okinawa was involved in farming, as most pre-industrial societies were) would a) spend hours at night after long days working in the fields practicing martial arts? b) attempt to fight samurai with just their bare hands? I say neither is very logical and attribute your source to a fairy tale. And I don't think the Japanese, based on their historical record, were above collective punishment. If some dumb farmhand had killed a samurai using his bare hands, I'm pretty sure they'd have killed everyone in the village, burned it down, or at the very least increase their garrison there and put an end to any karate practice. Don't forget Okinawa never had a successful resistance against occupation--hence they are still part of Japan to this day.

Things like so-and-so studied with a "trader" are absurd. This is not historical evidence. I very much doubt you'd get your historical account of Okinawan martial arts published in any peer reviewed journal of history relying soley upon the notion that some guy trained with some sailor from China at some point in time.

Ummm, yes, I'm well aware of Greek wrestling. I was going to mention something about wrestling, but I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that wrestling was well developed in every nation long ago. Why? The same reason the Greek's used it: sport. Greek warriors did not wrestle on the battlefield. The used swords and spears. Taking a guy to the ground and trying to submit him on the battlefield is asking for someone to stick a blade in you. But, yes, the Greeks did develop wrestling for competition, as a "ring sport". I'm also curious as to how exactly Greeks and Romans were crazy? Sweeping generalization, don't you think? I mean there were crazy Romans, for sure. Caliligula comes to mind. I'm sure the Greeks had their share of nut cases. But all civilizations are, in some sense, crazy. I fail to understand your case for why Greco-Roman civilization is somehow unique in this regard.

Oh, as for the kempo stuff, I like the "no one knows". Well if you don't have sufficient evidence to make a case, then don't try to make one. I'm actually rather certain that a good historian, or archaelogist, good probably get enough sound information to comfortable place a date on the origin of unarmed fighting arts in Okinawa. Given their relative modernity this shouldn't be difficult. But the information you've offered is not scholarly. Its the stuff of myths and legends. Things shrouded in secrecy, mystery...please.
Such stories are perpetuated because the naive buy into them. The fact is that the martial arts have been largely neglected by historians and archeaologists, thus we've been stuck with these myths. A little logic demonstrates how absurd they are. Again, I'll say the same thing in a slightly different way. If you honestly believe Okinawans developed karate to defend themselves against samurai I offer the following exercise: you and a training partner get a bokken. One of you plays karateka. The other gets to be samurai. Start sparring. It pretty much sucks to be hit with a bokken. The good thing is that you'll retain all your limbs. Its pretty unlikely you're able to disarm the sword before taking a few cuts. Those cuts, in the days before paramedics and emergency medicine, were likely to be lethal. Now after doing this exercise tell me if you think fighting against swords unarmed is a good idea.

In any case, Pencode I am not at all impressed with your erudition. When you've got something substantial I'm looking forward to reading it. But your "stories" do not constitute evidence in my book. Remember, incredible claims require incredible evidence. The claim that Bruce could throw one thousand punches a second or that karateka were killing armed samurai with their hands are pretty incredible claims, don't you think?

[Pencode]

Oh well, I tried . It is hard to understand how you became a scientist if you cannot comprehend what you read. I find find that strangely ironic. For example, simple fractions...I mean I am not talking exponentials or derivatives, just simple math. Thousanths of a secaond could mean 20/1000ths, 300/1000ths, 5/thousanths.
Bruces punches were measured. In fact, Dan still had the machine in his school in Torrance. Secondly, if you had actually absorbed what was written before trying to think of a way to disagree, you would have known that in the fifteenth cetury, weapons were banned in Japan and later it was conquered. They learned to fight to defend themselves against bandits, marauders and thieves, not samurai. Thirdly, the Greeks and especailly the Romans were crazy is just an expression used to describe the fact that their society at the time used killing as sport(Gladiators)...try that sort of thing today. Fourth, as I recall, being a scientist and requiring evidence has always been relative to the time frame in which they existed. For example, the "scientific standard" back in "da day" was that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. How......scientific. Or how about things that science cannot explain? People walking on fire and not getting burned, shoving pins through their skin and not bleeding, Where the energy of the human body goes when it dies. What did science believe about gravity before Newton or germs before Pastuer or thermodynamics before Kelvin or genetics before Mendel or atomic energy before Dalton or anatomy before Couvier or chemistry befor Boyle etc? Many of them just had theories not evidence. Sorry, hiding behind a mask of science doesn't cut it. Fifth, did you bother to look up the info yourself? Nope. You already had your fists up before you knew what you were swingin at. Statements like "absurd..naive" abound. Yet, you yourself provide no explanation of the origin of Karate Do from your so called peer reviewed journals. What gives. What, Karate just magicaly appeared on the island of Okinawa? They woke up one morning an Joila, we know karate. If you understand Japanese culture, then you would know that history is passed down word of mouth through generations. Japanese are very proud of their lineage.

You say you are not impressed with my erudition. Well, on the same token, I am not impressed with your disparaging act of "superior intelligence". Everyone is an ignoramous according to you. Unfortunately, some "evidence" on your part is mysteriously non-existent to disprove anything anyone has written or quoted.
I always thought that a scientist developes a theory, then proves his theory with experimentation to make it fact. I guess in your case it is all about "reverse engineering". Disprove other's facts without proof and make them into "absurd" theories.

I believe this quote from Jonathen Swift describes you well. "You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place." Oh, but then again, I cannot prove that he cited this passage. How naive of me.

[WaTEr]

i live in Oshkosh, wiscousin iin the good ol' usa. off highway 60 near a place called stony beach. I live on hazel street 7263 its a blue house on the corner. So anybody who wants to come just hop on over. Ohh and please, if you must bring no guns or such. a knife is unfair but if you want to bring it by all means all cut you with your own knife. i don't fear death like so many of my competitors.