Tae Kwon Do, Stop knocking It!!!

[blade_cs]

B;ade, thanks for the clips. I didn't look at them all and have no interest in breaking etc.

I looked at some of the knife defence, and did think that the guys moved well with speed. But the aggressors just stood still. And one demo showed a so called attacker stepping forwards to attack, in the most telegraphed and unrealistic way.

Some of these people looked as though they could fight though, which is pretty good. Not all TKD is fat housewives and flicky kicky.

Hey Thai Bri, no problem at all. I agree with you that almost all the techniques are telegraphed. But I mean, it should be, shouldn't it? It's a demo.

Even if they telegraph techniques during actual practice (ie: not demos), it shows that TKD has some self defense. Although, I would agree that the self defense shown here isn't all that great. For example, in one of the knife defenses ("stick knife defense" is what they call it, I think), the defender just grabbed the attacker's hand without throwing him off balance then performing like 4 techniques while the attacker just did nothing. The attacker could've simply punched the defender. I guess these are just basic techniques to show the public.

I also found some video clips from Hapkido that had similar techniques:

http://www.jinpal.com/file/van/hapkidovideopage.html.

It just so happens that this Dojang is actually located one block away from the TKD place I found. They're competitors.

Maybe the TKD instructor had some HKD before?

[blade_cs]

A new TKD school has opened up where I live. My friend, and a TKD school owner/instructor, went by to see what they were all about. What he found was a middle age HOUSEWIFE who is overweight, and a 3rd degree blackbelt in ATA TKD. Her husband also teaches there and he wasnt around for my friend to talk to. From what I've read about ATA online is that each school has to follow the ATA rules and is ran by the ATA. ATA states on their website that they incorporate grappling and other aspects to be a "complete martial artist." My friend told them that he had a BJJ blue belt at his school that did some grappling classes, and was interested in what their grappling background was. Fatass stated that it was taught in the ATA and developed by the ATA. Shyeah.....

Basicly this ATA has all internal tournaments. My friend invited them to do a tournament with his kids, and they declined.. for now. I'm going to go in and try to do some grappling with the instructor. Any bets on how long before he submits?

I will keep you updated on the lard-ass TKD school.

Oh, the other TKD school that was here, a TRUE mcdojo. This guy didnt even give paperwork with the belts, he finally shut down after 8 months of my friends school opening.

Yeah, I still think TKD alone sucks.

I noticed the guy who started this thread doesnt respond to anything. I wonder if he's a fat ass too?

Well, maybe the instructor created the ATA, but why do you want go and challenge him? If he's teaching MA for a living, he could lose his business once (and if) he loses.

Anyways, if you do go grapple with him, tell me how it goes! he he he

[Benjamin Dover]

Well...the truth is out....TKD does SUCK!!! There was an article in my local paper 3-4 years ago about how a TKD Master got the crap kicked out of him when his convenience store was being robbed. He didn't have enough space in the cramped aisles to do anything. He got a real beating from 2 street fighters. I think that being a 8th degree master in anything you should be able to put up a decent fight against 2 untrained people?!?! I went to a TKD school the professed to do kickboxing. Looked exactly like TKD to me. Another did grappling....I think the instructor must have just studied videotapes.

[eXcessiveForce]

The ATA does have grappling based on GJJ but it is not widely implimented in the instructor ranks. And it is seriously lacking when used on good grapplers. It works just fine on people that do not know anything though.

Unfortunately the ATA while have a good system often has very lacking instructors. Most do not know the system very well only the business aspect. And many could care less if what they do is effective or not.

And while ATA people can go to open tournaments it is not really encouraged or done a whole lot.

It is near impossible to find good schools in the ATA but there are a few out there.

Also recently the ATA has gone though several changes which have had some serious effects that are not yet all worked out.

[blade_cs]

Well...the truth is out....TKD does SUCK!!! There was an article in my local paper 3-4 years ago about how a TKD Master got the crap kicked out of him when his convenience store was being robbed. He didn't have enough space in the cramped aisles to do anything. He got a real beating from 2 street fighters. I think that being a 8th degree master in anything you should be able to put up a decent fight against 2 untrained people?!?! I went to a TKD school the professed to do kickboxing. Looked exactly like TKD to me. Another did grappling....I think the instructor must have just studied videotapes.

Would you happen to remember which TKD school the instructor owned? Or which city in Canada was it?

I wanna check it out.

Thanks.

[Benjamin Dover]

I will PM you as I do not want to publicly humiliate anyone.

[eXcessiveForce]

There was a tkd 3rd degree that broke out of the county jail in St. louis and climbed down the outside brick wall. If i remember right he beat a few gaurds sensless and then kicked out a barred window and climbed down.

[blade_cs]

Yeah so not all TKD is bad. It depends on a lot of things, like the school and martial artist.

TKD would be useful if your enemy has your hands tied behind your back, and your feet are free.

What do you guys think of the TKD on the website I found:

I did some searching on the Internet and found a TKD site with some self defense applications.

The homepage is http://www.wustaekwondo.com/home/home.htm. I've selected some pages of this website which I thought were the best out of this particular site. I'm not saying whether TKD is good for self defense or not, I just picked something out of this school which I thought were okay for TKD.

The demo video clips page is: http://www.wustaekwondo.com/demo/demo-video.htm

The ones I thought that were good out of this website:

http://www.wustaekwondo.com/demo/demo-video-2003Tinseltown.htm

http://www.wustaekwondo.com/demo/demo-video-ChineseCalligraphyContest.htm

http://www.wustaekwondo.com/demo/demo-video-2003RichmondSociety-RichmondCentre.htm

The self defense techniques resemble the ones used in Hapkido. Anyways, tell me what you guys think.

There are some self defense here.

[Benjamin Dover]

Uhhhh...yeah...ok.....I will wait until they tie my hands behind my back and then I will mess them up. Or how about if I wait until they blindfold me and then cuff my hands.

[Combat Cherokee]

Jesus, what is it going to take?!?!?!?!

How long is this topic going to go back and forth? TKD is practically useless! I studied it for 6 years, 6 years that i will NEVER get back. Effectiveness is the key, not what techniques work. Who gives a rats testicle, if a kick dose this or one step sparring?! TKD dose not cover anything that has to do with REAL self defense. In order for a SD system to work it need to cover ALL aspects of the self defense spectrum including...

Mental Prep./Emotional Control
Situational Awareness
Adrienal Stress Conditioning
Pre Fight Psychology
Concept Based Training(5 principles of physical retaliation)
Functional Kicking
Functional Hand striking
CQC(traps, elbows/knees, shredder)
Grappling/Ground Fighting
Functional Weapon Training
Unarmed defense againt weapons
Post Traumatic Stress
Legal/Moral Issues

And each of these has smaller topics that are needed to be covered. TKD only cover Kicking(non functional) punching, and some crappy CQC. Techniques like that dont mean jack if they are not based around the foundation of all the other stuff I said in the list. Thats why TKD is bull, as well as alot of other styles taught as self-defense. Regardless how great a MA is at stuff like TKD, they still only train in that way, their training always has ...
Preparation, Consent and Awarness...
NONE of which exists in a real violent encounter!
THATS why TKD dosnt work.

Never Sacrifice Functional Self Defense for the Sake of Tradition
-C-

[Maxetai]

How long is this topic going to go back and forth? TKD is practically useless! I studied it for 6 years, 6 years that i will NEVER get back. Effectiveness is the key, not what techniques work. Who gives a rats testicle, if a kick dose this or one step sparring?! TKD dose not cover anything that has to do with REAL self defense. In order for a SD system to work it need to cover ALL aspects of the self defense spectrum including...

Mental Prep./Emotional Control
Situational Awareness
Adrienal Stress Conditioning
Pre Fight Psychology
Concept Based Training(5 principles of physical retaliation)
Functional Kicking
Functional Hand striking
CQC(traps, elbows/knees, shredder)
Grappling/Ground Fighting
Functional Weapon Training
Unarmed defense againt weapons
Post Traumatic Stress
Legal/Moral Issues

And each of these has smaller topics that are needed to be covered. TKD only cover Kicking(non functional) punching, and some crappy CQC. Techniques like that dont mean jack if they are not based around the foundation of all the other stuff I said in the list. Thats why TKD is bull, as well as alot of other styles taught as self-defense. Regardless how great a MA is at stuff like TKD, they still only train in that way, their training always has ...
Preparation, Consent and Awarness...
NONE of which exists in a real violent encounter!
THATS why TKD dosnt work.

Never Sacrifice Functional Self Defense for the Sake of Tradition
-C-

You have just eliminated about 99% of the Martial Arts Styles and not just TKD. There are only a handful of systems that address what you've covered.
So the point is not that "TKD is not a complete system", but that the overwhelming majority of the Martial Arts are not a complete system for self-protection. TKD is good at what it emphasizes: Kicking. Boxing is good at Punching. BJJ is good at Grappling. I could go on and on for most styles but you get my point.
Let me ask you this: A great fighter in a certain system dies of a chronic illness that he could have prevented through his diet. Is the system he was practicing flawed and incomplete since it didn't protect him and he died? How much is diet awareness and the Healing Arts in general important in a system that professes Self-Protection? We want to learn to protect ourselves from others and we sometimes-or should I say most times-neglect taking care of ourselves! Not too smart or wise eh?
Self-Defense, Self-Protection, Survival in general should also incorporate protecting ourselves personally. Do you agree?
The Greeks said it perfectly: "Above All: Know Thyself" (Above everything else: Know Yourself").
It is Your Well Being that's the ultimate self-defense. Your Well Being includes much more that just finding the best system in beating somebody else up. It includes every aspect of your existense.

[Combat Cherokee]

It all starts with self

Im not saying that ALL MA's are useless. First off let me say that fitness and personal awareness, DO play a part in TOTAL self-defense, but we are talking about TKD and its effectiveness, not lifestyles. Mental health and such can be talked about on Dr. Phil's forum. There are so many facets involved is self defense, and like it or not TKD at one time was taught as pure self-defense, not a sport, not a fancy dance, but as a way of fighting, but its been poluted world wide, and now is passed off as a practical form of self defense, and its not! Today many people place their life in a sport that gives them just enough guts to get killed in a real fight! Almost every other form of combat, martial arts, blah blah blah, teaches st least some sort of range proficiency. TKD dosnt even do that very simple concept of to close to punch or to far to kick, so they either sacrifice power in their punches, by using half a$$ed hand techniques at to close of a range, or make their "long" kick up that have even less power and become much more telegraphic. Yes almost every traditional MA out there lacks in some way or another for modern times.
Thai Boxing lacks ground skills
BJJ cant be used against multiple attackers
Boxing can be used in long range
Now these are just examples and each can be debated, but again these are only examples. I wrote that post as to point out what is needed to make something close to a complete fighting system, and TKD has none of it, not even functional kicking or functional punching. Even its fighting stance is unrealistic, cause truth is in a real fight your lucky if you even get a chance to get a boxing stance, muchless a wide stance with a pathetic defense. My point of my last post was that saying TKD could be used for self defense is like saying kicks from salsa dancers could be incorperated into a K-1 event. Then people argue that because its artistic it CAN be used if trained right. I could pee in a glass put a rose in it and someone would call it artistic. Karate, Mauy Thai, Bando, Gung Fu, JKD, Wing Chung, Combato, Defendo, Krav Maga, Senshido, Chu Fen Do, where all created at their time to FIGHT not be an art form, when they were created they wearnt made buy a guy who was bored with the popular arts forms and wanted to make a buck! They were made in times of war conflict or concern for war protection and defense. TKD is dangerous for people who wnna learn to be safe, cause if a TKD chick is jogging one day and get tackled by a rapist, oopps im on the ground, my TKD just went down the crapper, can you get off and well bow then try again? Thats bull man and you know it. People place their very lives in the hands of their teachers, and if their teacher is giving them some slap happy, fancy dance and says go forth now your safe, they might as well have raped, stabbed, shot, beat, or killed the student themselves.

TKD is good at what it emphasizes: Kicking

No its not and any good kickers here who are not TKD religious nuts will agree. Ive seen people take perfect hits to the face from trained boxers and keep fighting and win, just because they have a HUGE threshold of pain, TKD's "specialty" kicking, wont work againt people like that cause their kick are weak enough to begin with, but that already been discussed. I could go on, but im not gonna take anymore space in this post then Ive already taken.

Many martial arts can be useless, that dosnt mean some others cant be used. Some martial arts are affective this dosnt mean the are perfect. Some system's can be perfect, until someone learns to by pass it.

-C-

[gracilva]

i think the bottom line is, 99% of people who have done tkd
have switched to something else.

oh... and 1% are religiously defending it on multiple forums

[sherwinc]

i think the bottom line is, 99% of people who have done tkd
have switched to something else.

oh... and 1% are religiously defending it on multiple forums

Why???????

cause Tae Kwon Do and Karate have the same fighting principles, they have the same block, they have the same hand attacks, their Kata is useless when streetfighting.... and the most dis-advantages of Karate and Tae Kwon Do is "We all know their advantages and dis-advantages in fighting" as well as purely telegraphic to the eye all its moves,

i know all Karate and Tae Kwon Do's stances, hand attacks and kicks, and we know how to counter it or controll or having them no time to use thier attacks.

for example:
1. a frontal kick to your groin...... tae kwon do and karate will block that kick using downward block..... right?????? see???? i know what moves you'll do...

[Maxetai]

Combat Cherokee,
Good post. I agree with most of what you're saying, but what you are saying applies to 99% of the MA Styles anyway as I mentioned earlier.
No need to argue further, you've made your point and it's a good one. I just think that it applies to most Traditional MA Styles and not just TKD.
I wish you well.