I love TKD but...

[Thai Bri]

You short sighted little moron.

[brokenelbow]

Yeah but I'd be a living short sighted little moron.

[Thai Bri]

No you wouldn't. Learning from the mistakes IN the training hall help prevent you making them in the real word.

[eXcessiveForce]

the less learning experiences you have the less wins you have

[Studiobuddy]

yea i agree with xforce

[IPON]

the less learning experiences you have the less wins you have

Perhaps,but one does not need to loose in order to learn. One can learn as well from winning (or the quality of the win). Loosing, merely forces you to look at mistakes. Many mistakes are made by those who win. I have had my ass handed to me and not lost becuase of heart but you would not know I won looking at me.

[Thai Bri]

Are you drunk?

[eXcessiveForce]

hmmm, maybe we need to define losing.

Losing, -substaining an injury from an altercation that could have been prevented.
Losing-taking more damage than your attacker
Losing-being forced to play someone elses game that you are not skilled in a fight


of course you can learn from a win, but we aren't talking about a win in this thread.

So either you can lose and be a failure for the rest of your life, or you can choose to learn from it and take steps to make sure it never happens again.

in the end you get to decide. But after reading some of the posts a few of you are gonna get pounded on really good someday.

[eXcessiveForce]

simple test for those of you can't figure out if you won are not.

If the other guy will fight you again, you didn't win.

[brokenelbow]

Learning from the mistakes IN the training hall help prevent you making them in the real word.

I agree but that's mistakes in the training hall not losing. I think learning from mistakes is used as an excuse by many who don't learn and tend to lose as a result. I've honestly never learned a damn thing by losing except I really should have spent more time learning before the fight. Like most I used to spar against my betters and hope not to get hurt so badly, now I'm looking how to win and now more often than before I do. Maybe the other guy can beat me but that's not the attitude I use when I have to spar or fight. I'm not there to lose and learn, to be a punching bag or a be victim, and I can thank my sensei for that mind set. Kobra Kai!

Anyway I get pounded enough every class during hojo undo.

[medic06]

hmmm, maybe we need to define losing.

Losing, -substaining an injury from an altercation that could have been prevented.
Losing-taking more damage than your attacker
Losing-being forced to play someone elses game that you are not skilled in a fight


of course you can learn from a win, but we aren't talking about a win in this thread.

So either you can lose and be a failure for the rest of your life, or you can choose to learn from it and take steps to make sure it never happens again.

in the end you get to decide. But after reading some of the posts a few of you are gonna get pounded on really good someday.

You forgot a few. . .

Losing - is beating the crap out of someone and then getting thrown in jail
Losing - is getting sued because you beat the crap out of someone
Losing - is getting stabbed or shot the next day or next week

[brokenelbow]

So what is not losing? Rolling over and hoping to for the best?

[eXcessiveForce]

give you a hint, there are damn few real wins when it comes to street altercations.


Avoid, if possible. this would be a win. no damage
Incapacitate if possible, while taking no damage, win


face it, winning is a ring term. survival is a street term. Avoidance is a street term.

even if you beat someone to a pulp and were right in doing so, nothing keeps that person from coming back another day and shooting you in the head out of the blue.

real life is not the ring. the ring may help to prepare you for real life but it is not a substitute.

[brokenelbow]

give you a hint, there are damn few real wins when it comes to street altercations.

That's your point of view. The other guy may have an entire different set of rules that determine a win. You're walking down the street and see someone who intimidates you so you avoid (win for you), he see you coming down the street puffs up and intimidates you so you go away so his buddy's can gang rape a 13 year old girl(win for him). So we have two winners and one loser.

Sometimes you have to stand up to someone trying to initimidate you. I've been in this situation and it wasn't nice. While my adversary was interviewing me I was interviewing him by watching his body language and seeing how he replied to things. Once I knew he was going to use violence if I backed down I turned the tables on him and started to quietly intimidate him, but still leaving him a way out. I know establishing with him that any physical action on his part would be far worse for him then me kept things from going physical. My mind set was I was going to beat him either mentally or physically. Some other time avoidance or running may have been the order of the day but not that day.

Incapacitate if possible, while taking no damage, win

So if I incapacitate someone trying to knife me, but I get cut do I lose?

Losing - is getting stabbed or shot the next day or next week

Losing is also getting stabbed or shot right then and there because you looked easy.

Hey I think fighting sucks and I'm not Bobby Badass. Fighting in the ring or even in the dojang can take a toll on a person, but using violence is something we've chosen to do, chosen to study. You have to be realistic about what you're doing and be responsible for what you use it for, but you can't say using your skills makes you a loser. If they do then why bother wasting the time and money doing them?

[eXcessiveForce]

I don't think you understand what everyone is saying.


Winning or losing is not what martial arts is about. It is continually improving your abilities and promoting survival.

Winning or losing is determined in hindsight not in the moment. When it is on the line if you are thinking about winning or losing you have already lost. It is about single mindedness of purpose. To eliminate the threat. nothing else matters at that moment.

While you worry about whether you are winning or not, some of us are worried about inflicting more damage and misery upon our attacker.
When it comes down to a real life or death battle, assume you are already dead, then there is nothing can hold you back from your goal.

While situations arise in life where force may be required, looking at it from the point of view of competition is foolish. So you kill someone and they paralyze you, did you win? If you defend yourself against a drunk and paralyze him and go to jail did you win? If you intimidate someone enough that they feel they must elimiate you by coming back armed and eliminating you and your familiy did you win?

I may lose a battle but survival is certain.

try to open up your mind to ideas people are trying to expose you too.
Avoid when you can avoid,
Fight when you must fight
Run when you must run.
Defend when you must defend.

Remember, no body can win them all, but you can survive them.