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TKD as a kicking art?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Piston View Post
    I think the key to getting the axe kick to work is to have it come completely out of nowhere. But then you have to be very good to do that. One of my favourite tricks to look like I'm doing a back spin kick but in fact use my back leg as an axe kick. Surprises the hell out of people because they prepare for a long arcing back spin kick, or back hook kic, back kick or even 360 turning kick, but then suddenly there's this horrible feeling on the top of their head....
    That sounds cool but also harder to pull off, which means it requires a lot more training than other techniques like a round house. Which also makes it a low percentage technique (assuming same amount of training on all techniques). That's why I feel it's better to put that time into boxing for instance, which is high percentage... But also we're getting into the discussion of TKD sidestance vs frontal kickboxing stance... When you spar with lowkicks, the sidestance is much more vulnerable than the frontal stance I think.
    Originally posted by Piston View Post
    You say your friends axe kicks keep getting caught in your guard? It sounds like he's "emphasising" the kick wrong. This means the point at which you pull down as hard as possible. If you both of roughly equal weights an axe kick should tear through any guard.
    Not just HIS axe kick, pretty much ALL who do them... includning my instructors axe kick.. and he's (way) better than me at those kind of kicks (TKD type kicks).
    My friend is about my height, but much more muscular, so he weighs more. His punches and kicks are very hard, and he does not know the meaning of light sparring, it's always full out with him, lol. And he shouldn't be doing it wroing, since he was a red belt, kicking black belts asses when he did TKD.
    Originally posted by Piston View Post
    Also a tip to you, don't rush into an axe kick for 2 reasons, 1.) You might time it wrong and then suddenly find your nose, eye or section of your forehead has been misplaced.
    This would be impossible since I always keep my chin down and guard up. So if anything, it would hit the top of my head. And that's why I move in, so that I smother that attack and while his fot is coming down from my guard I'm moving in with boxing. If I stand still I move my (10 or 12oz) gloves up high on my head and take the impact on them, but this is last resort. Well actually I move the gloves up high even when I move in.
    And just to clearify, when I say "move in" I don't mean RUSH, as that implies almost running into it in an unctrolled fashion. I mean I step in about 30 cm/12 inches never crossing my feet. After that I move in more if I want to box or stay and throw a kick from there.
    But if I don't do this, what do you suggest I do?
    Originally posted by Piston View Post
    2.) Its very easy to change an axe kick into another kick IF your friend
    catches on, you may find yourself running head on to a sidekick.
    You mean he notices I always move in, and performs a feint move? Well, since he uses a square kickboxing stance like me, kicks that require a sideways stance take longer time, I guess that's why he never does that feint. In any case, myguard would catch that sidekick. However, in that case it would still be a good attack on his part because even with the guard up I would be moving into the sidekick, so the impact would be pretty good on my guard.
    Originally posted by Piston View Post
    P.S Oh yeah is your friend getting his axe kick above your head height before he pulls down? Could be his problem.
    Yes, and my instructor also. They get the leg high up to get speed in the kick. About 30-40 centimeters (12-16 inches) from my head when they reach the top is my guess.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by gabbah View Post
      That sounds cool but also harder to pull off, which means it requires a lot more training than other techniques like a round house. Which also makes it a low percentage technique (assuming same amount of training on all techniques). That's why I feel it's better to put that time into boxing for instance, which is high percentage... But also we're getting into the discussion of TKD sidestance vs frontal kickboxing stance... When you spar with lowkicks, the sidestance is much more vulnerable than the frontal stance I think.
      Erm...I wouldn't say the front stance is better against a leg kick for one reason. You've got both legs exposed. With the side stance you've only got one leg to worry about.

      Originally posted by gabbah View Post
      This would be impossible since I always keep my chin down and guard up. So if anything, it would hit the top of my head. And that's why I move in, so that I smother that attack and while his fot is coming down from my guard I'm moving in with boxing. If I stand still I move my (10 or 12oz) gloves up high on my head and take the impact on them, but this is last resort. Well actually I move the gloves up high even when I move in.
      And just to clearify, when I say "move in" I don't mean RUSH, as that implies almost running into it in an unctrolled fashion. I mean I step in about 30 cm/12 inches never crossing my feet. After that I move in more if I want to box or stay and throw a kick from there.
      But if I don't do this, what do you suggest I do?
      Big no-no here. Good idea to move in with your gloves up, just watch for the feint/side kick to the gut. But really watch the exposure on the top of your head. The top of your head is where all the "seams" of your skull join making it a much softer spot. Also vertical brain motion is another thing to be worried about, you're skull has a lot less room for the brain to move up and down rather than most knockouts caused from a forward and back motion, also because your spine and central nervous coloumn (if that's the correct terminology) is at the bottom of your skull connecting directly to the brain. Any brain bouncing in a vertical motion is, for these two reasons to be avioded at all costs. Lastly the jolt to the top of your head can do a nasty number on your neck if you're not careful.

      Originally posted by gabbah View Post
      You mean he notices I always move in, and performs a feint move? Well, since he uses a square kickboxing stance like me, kicks that require a sideways stance take longer time, I guess that's why he never does that feint. In any case, myguard would catch that sidekick. However, in that case it would still be a good attack on his part because even with the guard up I would be moving into the sidekick, so the impact would be pretty good on my guard.
      Wouldn't your hands be up guarding against the axekick?

      Originally posted by gabbah View Post
      Yes, and my instructor also. They get the leg high up to get speed in the kick. About 30-40 centimeters (12-16 inches) from my head when they reach the top is my guess.
      I'm not dissing your instructor here but if his axe kick is at least a good foot away from you when he does it, its no wonder you're able to laugh in the face of it. Make yourself a cup of tea whilst his foot is getting to you, sit out on your porch with a glass of Southern Comfort and a good friend and say "Foots a-comin."
      "Yup."

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Piston View Post
        Erm...I wouldn't say the front stance is better against a leg kick for one reason. You've got both legs exposed. With the side stance you've only got one leg to worry about.
        Hmm do you guys spar with lowkicks? Because I think it's generally known that it's very hard to fight sideways against the lowkick.
        When in the front stance, you can block with your shin by rasing your leg. This you can't do in the side stance. Also, since you're more squared up, your hand striking is closer and actually made possible, as compared to the side stance where you can basically only throw jabs and possibly front hand hooks, although they will prolly be weak.
        In the front stance, it's still very hard to land a lowkick to the backleg.
        Btw, just to be clear, the "front stance" is a muay thai/kickboxing stance.
        We once had a seminar with this great kickboxing fighter from germany. He had won so many fights and was the champion. He fought with no lowkicks allowed, and yes he did fight sideways. I agree this may be the best if you don't have lowkicks. I talked to him about that. And he agreed that IF you fight with lowkicks, the frontal stance was better.
        Originally posted by Piston View Post
        Big no-no here. Good idea to move in with your gloves up, just watch for the feint/side kick to the gut. But really watch the exposure on the top of your head. The top of your head is where all the "seams" of your skull join making it a much softer spot. Also vertical brain motion is another thing to be worried about, you're skull has a lot less room for the brain to move up and down rather than most knockouts caused from a forward and back motion, also because your spine and central nervous coloumn (if that's the correct terminology) is at the bottom of your skull connecting directly to the brain. Any brain bouncing in a vertical motion is, for these two reasons to be avioded at all costs. Lastly the jolt to the top of your head can do a nasty number on your neck if you're not careful.



        Wouldn't your hands be up guarding against the axekick?
        Yeah of course, getting hit by a hard axe kick on the top of the head is dangerous... but I think I'd rather take it there than on the face.. after all, the head is pretty hard.
        My hands are high up if his leg is above my head, but if it's lower my guard is also lower. My guard only has to move so little compared to his leg, so that's why it's fast to adjust.
        By the way, you didn't reply to my question about what else I could do to defend the axe kick other than keeping my guard up high and moving in?
        Originally posted by Piston View Post
        I'm not dissing your instructor here but if his axe kick is at least a good foot away from you when he does it, its no wonder you're able to laugh in the face of it. Make yourself a cup of tea whilst his foot is getting to you, sit out on your porch with a glass of Southern Comfort and a good friend and say "Foots a-comin."
        "Yup."
        Well, I *think* it's that high, but I'd have to film it to be sure. That's the way it *feels*, since I have time to adjust my guard (well, if any kick is not setup by punching it's very hard to land it anywhere else than on my guard.. that goes for most fighters that have been sparring for a while I'd say). Perhaps it's about a foot, I can't tell since I don't look up at it.
        Anyway, my instructor is not a TKD fighter, so I can't say his axe kicks should be good. But my redbelt sparring friend should...
        I can see your point though, that if you don't bring the axekick up high, it's a way better faint, and has a way better chance of landing. But how do you still get the same power, since your foot is much closer to the target and thus has a shorter path to gain speed?

        I would like to try sparring with TKD fighters to see how it would work out stance wise and so on. Of course they would have to agree to lowkicks, and punching to the head if they don't already. I could also try without lowkicks to see that the sidestance is probably better then.

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        • #64
          Oh I'm sorry, my best advice on countering an axe kick would be move sideways and use your preffered shot to the body or face. The axekick pulls the rest of the body with so your opponent will inexorably be moving forward if its a decent one. The only thing he might catch you with is a turning kick off the front leg. Maybe.

          With the axe kick feint my favoured kick for power would be a front leg side kick. Doesn't matter which leg you throw them from they are powerful. Its just like stamping on something but towards your opponent rather than the ground. It generates power through use of the thigh muscle, the largest in your body. The other kick I may consider would be a hook kick which can catch some people off guard because it comes from he other side.

          I would say the side stance provides better defence against leg kicks because its very easy to bring the front leg up into a chamber and retaliate, again most simply the sidekick.

          Is your friend WTF TKD? This would clarify a lot of things because in WTF competition you tend to see lots of turning kicks, back kicks and very very,occaisionally axe kicks and not much else.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Piston View Post
            Oh I'm sorry, my best advice on countering an axe kick would be move sideways and use your preffered shot to the body or face. The axekick pulls the rest of the body with so your opponent will inexorably be moving forward if its a decent one. The only thing he might catch you with is a turning kick off the front leg. Maybe.
            Yeah, this can be done if he axe kicks from outside, or as a first attack... not if he sets it up with punches first, then it's too fast. I agree it's better to sidestep... but that's not always possible, if the axe kick is setup right.
            Originally posted by Piston View Post
            With the axe kick feint my favoured kick for power would be a front leg side kick. Doesn't matter which leg you throw them from they are powerful. Its just like stamping on something but towards your opponent rather than the ground. It generates power through use of the thigh muscle, the largest in your body. The other kick I may consider would be a hook kick which can catch some people off guard because it comes from he other side.
            The hook kick also needs to be used with care against a kickboxer. We hold our guards up to protect the face, so it's not so hard to take the hook kick on the guard and move in... this will in many cases end up with the one hook kicking being out of balance and often with the BACK to the opponent! That is very deangerous when the punches start flying.
            Originally posted by Piston View Post
            I would say the side stance provides better defence against leg kicks because its very easy to bring the front leg up into a chamber and retaliate, again most simply the sidekick.
            I take it you don't spar alot with lowkick... or am I wrong?
            The thing is, the lowkick is very fast and very powerful attack. Since it can come at any time, and has the same distance as a sidekick, you would have to almost constantly hold your lead leg up chambered. It would not be so hard to fake throwing the lowkick, making you react and sidekick, having one foot in the air while your opponent would have both feet planted. Which means he can move very fast forward or sideways, for instance go in at an angle (attacking you from the back). Also, he can catch the sidekick with his hands. This can all be done if his faking of stepping in was successful. Then he will be JUST out of range of the sidekick.
            Simlpy put, the thai block of the lowkick is MUCH faster and more ECONOMICAL way of dealing with the very dangerous lowkick, as opposed to always having to sidekick and chamber.
            Now that being said I think the sidekick is a VERY nice tool. I use it myself, but then I ALWAYS use the soutpaw stance against an ortodox fighter. This changes the danger of the lowkick dramatically.
            We have a fighter that uses the sidestance and has very good and strong sidekicks (and other good kicks as well). Well, we can't just go in and start punching him, because he can then sidekick us pretty good. So what we do is like I described... and the result is he often eats the lowkicks, until he changes stance.
            Originally posted by Piston View Post
            Is your friend WTF TKD? This would clarify a lot of things because in WTF competition you tend to see lots of turning kicks, back kicks and very very,occaisionally axe kicks and not much else.
            Yes he is WTF.

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