Crosstraining with Muay Thai

[Acitic]

Because MT kick is known throughout the MA community for having the most devastating roundhouse kick.

I'm pretty sure TKD still - regardless of ITF or WTF - still teaches one to pivot, put the hip into it, and then kick, that is of course, you're in a mcdojang.

TKD kick is powerful. The point is, however, the MT kicks IS a little different in execution and is more powerful. Everyone agrees with that statement. The MT RH is unrivaled in power.

also look at the positioning.... the MT RH is aimed generally at the Lateral Femoral. Very affective! That is why it is in the Police Pressure Point System, because it is affective. The TKD Turning Kick is generally aimed at the face? But no specific target on the face.... Now lets say the turning kick was aimed at the Brachial Plexus Origin, with power, brown out almost every time. Just to clarify, brown out is a temperary stoppabe of blood to brain, therefore it causes disorientation

[Acitic]

Just a follow up.......

Cause And Effect
Brachial Plexus Origin (nerve) : Loss of consciousness results from trauma to the carotid artery and the pneumogastrix nerve leading to shock and to loss of sensory and mortor Functions.

Normal Terms..... it F*&%'s you up in head.

Lateral Femoral (nerve): Loss of consciousness results from cramping of the muscle in the thigh, leading to pain in the lower abdomen and the loss of motor function in the leg.

Normal Terms....... Charlie Horse In Leg, if done hard enough, it spreads.

[tkd_person89]

And your point/conclusion?

[Acitic]

And your point/conclusion?

yaaa...ummm.... i don't know what my point was.... i was wanted to throw some big terms out there to act smart, and such.....

So to conclude, if you stick your touge to the metal poll in winter, you are just asking to get it stuck.... and that is how we will find world peace.

[tkd_person89]

Yes... you are the symbol of intelligence.... lol...

[Sagacious Lu]

When I started training in Muay Thai in 1990, the way that the kick was taught reminded me of the old way of teaching the TKD Roundhouse Kick, but the thais had a much more refined technique... probably due to the fact that they did a lot more bag and pad training then Korean Martial artists did at that time.[/QUOTE

This makes sense to me; from what you're saying the mechanics are the same, the difference is in how much time and effort has been put into mastering it.

[Andrew WA]

Martial arts is fighting! There are no rules to fighting! Who cares what art you practice you can kick anywhere with any part of your body!!!

TKD can kick to the legs as well as MT. TKD is not only for face kicks!

Round kicks are called round kicks. They are not called turn kicks! Whoever told you that was stupid.

Muy thai kicks ussually do not snap and the leg/shin is turned at a downward angle when kicking the enemy in the thigh. Most TKD people will kick in a more upward motion if they are not tuaght the downward angle. The downward angle is more effective when kicking the legs.

Most TKD people have adapted to this and. I still use the TKD snap when I kick (and I can kick hard with a snap) because I think its more effective to snap it because you arnt ALWAYS going to hit your opponents leg and I dont likle spinning all the way around in a circle if I miss. I dont think its smart. If I do make a hard contact I will not snap my leg back fast and I will force my leg into the enemies thgih. I also have been using my lower shin for leg kicks which is close to my instep.
I think speed is something that you should use for a fight and using slow thai kicks for me is not going to work. So I modified it for my TKD style a lot. basically its the same as a thai kick but I also snap it back at times.


Other MA's use the "thai" kick as well like byokuwin karate and kykoshin.

[eXcessiveForce]

the difference lies in the type of force generated.

TKD (we call it a round kick, but in other tkd systems I've been in it has been called a roundhouse kick, only a few times have I heard it called a turning kick.) uses an impulse shockwave, it relys on speed and retracts after contact with the target. It is a chambered whip like kick mostly used for bony surfaced. The short time on contact protects the foot from rebound energy. The striking tool can be the ball of the foot, instep, and shin.

A MT kick, uses fluid shockwave. It relies on time on contact with the target and total body rotation. (it is called an angle kick in our tkd system) The leg is not traditionally "chambered". It is more of a leg swing thus the baseball bat analogy. It is generally used for soft targets like the leg muscles and such ( bad things can happen when it makes contact on a hard bony surface such as the hip see retireds post of and xrays of his leg) this is because when struck the force rebounds and the weakest thing gives.

both are good kicks, both have different uses, different looks, different technique.

You have to use the right tool for the job.

[Sagacious Lu]

the difference lies in the type of force generated.

TKD (we call it a round kick, but in other tkd systems I've been in it has been called a roundhouse kick, only a few times have I heard it called a turning kick.) uses an impulse shockwave, it relys on speed and retracts after contact with the target. It is a chambered whip like kick mostly used for bony surfaced. The short time on contact protects the foot from rebound energy. The striking tool can be the ball of the foot, instep, and shin.

A MT kick, uses fluid shockwave. It relies on time on contact with the target and total body rotation. (it is called an angle kick in our tkd system) The leg is not traditionally "chambered". It is more of a leg swing thus the baseball bat analogy. It is generally used for soft targets like the leg muscles and such ( bad things can happen when it makes contact on a hard bony surface such as the hip see retireds post of and xrays of his leg) this is because when struck the force rebounds and the weakest thing gives.

both are good kicks, both have different uses, different looks, different technique.

You have to use the right tool for the job.

Thanks, I think I'm starting to understand. The link aseepsish posted(http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/mt/kk1.html) decribes the roundhouse kick I'm familiar with. "Chambered" means you have your leg lifted and poised to deliver a kick right? Does that mean the difference between the TKD and MT kicks is just that in TKD you chamber it first, which allows you to throw it faster but with less force? You could use the shin or instep for this but I must be completely missing something because it seems just about impossible to strike with the ball of your foot while rotating your hips to generate power the way you do in a roundhouse kick Also, you say that TKD has an "angle kick" that is just like the MT kick, so does that mean that in fact TKD does contain the same technique thai fighters use, they just call it something different?

[eXcessiveForce]

Our system does contain the angle kick, WTF and ITF do not have this type of kick.

As for round kicks, hitting with the instep and shin decrease the force due to a larger surface area. By pulling the off back, and pulling your toes back (similar to wearing high heeled shoes i guess) you are able to strike with the ball. We can shin and instep kicks slap kicks, and toes back penetration kicks.

Chambering is pulling the leg up into position first, this allows for a shorter distance traveled. MT kicks travel a greater distance and therefore are more easy to see coming and determine their direction and height. chambered kicks allow for more variation making them a bit more deceptive. Combine that with the speed generated from the decrease in distance traveled and you get a higher percentage of contact. (less misses)

hope that helps

MT's biggest asset is not their techniques (although their kicks and elbows are useful) it is their training and conditioning. It is rigorous enough that those not truely dedicated quit. This is a philosphical difference between TKD and MT. While some school in TKD are quite difficult (for instance mine) other MT schools may be more lax than others.

So whether to train or not will depend on the instructor and his knowledge and how well their training fits with what you are looking for.

Master Toddy, (a well known MT instructor) according the an article in MA training many years ago requires his MT fighters to take 5 years of TKD. He believes it gives them an edge. It has also been said by some that in Thailand they are starting to see more TKD type techniques used.

Exposure to as many systems as possible is an advantage in training. The things hardest to defend against are those you are unfamiliar with. However over exposure at lower training levels impedes progress and can lead to a lack of understanding of fundamentals.

[Sagacious Lu]

Thanks for taking the time to break it down, I see what's going on now. Chambering your leg before you throw the kick changes a lot. I'm familiar with using the ball of the foot to strike, but that kick is very different from a roundhouse. I think I just misunderstood your post. I'm very happy at my current school but I couldn't agree with you more that:

Exposure to as many systems as possible is an advantage in training. The things hardest to defend against are those you are unfamiliar with. However over exposure at lower training levels impedes progress and can lead to a lack of understanding of fundamentals.

That's why I ask a lot of questions

[Andrew WA]

I dont see a point in getting all overly technical about what kicks certain arts do and why and how they are perfectly executed and different.

TKD kicks arnt pulled back because it protects your foot! They are pulled back so no one can grab your leg and take you down! Your suppossed to condition your feet to make them like iron! Just like iron fist training!

round kick is a round kick. You hit with the instep most of the time in TKD but you can also switch to use the ball of your foot to make some good acurate puncture into their ribs or wherever you want.

[medic06]

Our system does contain the angle kick, WTF and ITF do not have this type of kick.

As for round kicks, hitting with the instep and shin decrease the force due to a larger surface area. By pulling the off back, and pulling your toes back (similar to wearing high heeled shoes i guess) you are able to strike with the ball. We can shin and instep kicks slap kicks, and toes back penetration kicks.

Chambering is pulling the leg up into position first, this allows for a shorter distance traveled. MT kicks travel a greater distance and therefore are more easy to see coming and determine their direction and height. chambered kicks allow for more variation making them a bit more deceptive. Combine that with the speed generated from the decrease in distance traveled and you get a higher percentage of contact. (less misses)

hope that helps

MT's biggest asset is not their techniques (although their kicks and elbows are useful) it is their training and conditioning. It is rigorous enough that those not truely dedicated quit. This is a philosphical difference between TKD and MT. While some school in TKD are quite difficult (for instance mine) other MT schools may be more lax than others.

So whether to train or not will depend on the instructor and his knowledge and how well their training fits with what you are looking for.

Master Toddy, (a well known MT instructor) according the an article in MA training many years ago requires his MT fighters to take 5 years of TKD. He believes it gives them an edge. It has also been said by some that in Thailand they are starting to see more TKD type techniques used.

Exposure to as many systems as possible is an advantage in training. The things hardest to defend against are those you are unfamiliar with. However over exposure at lower training levels impedes progress and can lead to a lack of understanding of fundamentals.

Good post!!!!

[eXcessiveForce]

Andrew, if you don't understand the physics of this you need to look it up.

Feet are weak and no amount of conditioning is going to allow you to strike a hip or a knee with your foot at full power. The bones in the feet are just too small.

Rebound energy is a major problem when hitting hard targets. Over the last 20 years I've seen lots of people break feet due to using the wrong type of kick.

And in my opinion, if I kick you and break your ribs, or knock you out, I really don't need to worry about you grabbing my foot. However you are right rechambering is so they don't grab you leg. In this case I am not referring to rechambering.

[Maxx]

A few things about the Muay Thai Round kick... at least the way that I learned it. I know that the execution varies from camp to camp.

When launched the kick travels in a nearly vertical angle until the hips and stomach are turned over. The kicking leg is generally launched by pushing off the the ball of the foot... giving it a level of explosiveness. The kick travels in a nearly straight line until the hips are snapped over, optimizing the speed of the technique. It can be thrown upwards... to the neck, across to the body and downwards to the thigh. Most people think of the Thai round kick as being slow... those who have practiced it know that it is the ultimate in speed and power.

The striking tool is generally the shin. The Thais have a reputation of being able to break the femur of lesser skilled opponents. For those of you who have been hit by a honest to goodness shin kick, you can probably see how that is possible.

Sorry, guys. It's late at night for me, I'm a little buzzed and I'm rambling... but I get a little tired of people saying that the thai-style round kick is slow... those of you who have practiced it under someone who knew what they were doing can verify this.