Moo Duk Kwan

[Hardball]

How does moo duk kwan rate as far as tkd goes? Is it better or as good as ITF or WTF? Anybody here study Moo Duk Kwan? If you think it's horseshit, just tell us why? If you think it's decent, tell us that also. By-the-way, I did a search and came up empty.

[Maxx]

Moo duk kwan is one of those things that actually confuses me. There seems to be a MDK taekwondo and a MDK Tang Soo Do. I probably haven't done enough research to really tell, but I've heard that MDK TSD is actually one of the groups that did not merge to become TKD in 1955 and chose to remain separate. Aside from that, from what I've seen, it's quite similar to standard TKD. I believe that practice a set of forms call the "pyong yang" set. essentially the same forms asthe pinan from okinawa.

[dodgeduckdodge]

How does moo duk kwan rate as far as tkd goes? Is it better or as good as ITF or WTF? Anybody here study Moo Duk Kwan? If you think it's horseshit, just tell us why? If you think it's decent, tell us that also. By-the-way, I did a search and came up empty.

Moo Duk Kwan, (Martial Virtue School) was founded in the late 1940's by the late Hwang Kee. It's style was a mutation of Shotokan, as Hwang Kee learned all he knew about martial arts from Gichin Funakoshi's book on Shotokan, which Hwang Kee found in the Seoul Railway Station Library that he worked at.

Later Hwang Kee went to the Chung Do Kwan to train with one of Funakoshi's actual students, Won Kuk Lee. Hwang got to the level of Green Belt and then left and opened the "Moo Duk Kwan".

Then, later on, the 9 Kwan's merged to form Taekwondo. Hwang Kee was mad because he could not be boss, and resigned from Taekwondo, reforming his Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan (later he changed the name to Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan).

So today you have two Moo Duk Kwans.

1. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan (still called Tang Soo Do by some), which is a continuum of Hwang Kee's original system, now headed by his son.

2. Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan, Korea, which was created by the majority of Hwang Kee's most senior students who wanted to merge with the other 8 Kwan's and form Taekwondo.

However, Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan officially dissolved as a martial art system when HONG, Chong Soo signed the Kwan Unity Act in the mid 1970's, and like all the Kwan's, Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan became a fraternal social friendship club and is not long a specific martial art style. Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan endorses 100% the Kukkiwon system as it's style.

So for over 30 years there has been no Moo Duk Kwan style in Taekwondo, Moo Duk Kwan played an important role in the creation of the Kukkiwon system, so today in the Kukkiwon methods is where you will find the best of Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan.

Today, Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan still exist as a social club and has it's annual celebration in Seoul every year where both members of Taekwondo, and Soo Bahk Do all gather to celebrate Moo Duk Kwan's founding.

Best Regards,

Alcohol

P.S. Moo Duk Kwan, like all Kwan.s with the exception of Oh Do Kwan has no relation with ITF. Oh Do Kwan was founded by Gen. Choi, so Oh Do Kwan is the root of ITF.

[Hardball]

Thanks, how about a reference source. That was excellent

[dodgeduckdodge]

Thanks, how about a reference source. That was excellent

1. Search the net for "A Modern History of Taekwondo" which will be a translation of the Korean language book by Kyong Myong Lee (Jidokwan senior) and Won Sik Kang (President of Song Moo Kwan)

2. Also, try finding a copy of Hwang Kee's last book on history of Moo Duk Kwan.

3. More difficult to find is Kyo Yoon Lee (Han Moo Kwan founder, who is still alive) book called Global Taekwondo which was published in 2003 I believe. I have scans of his history section which I could e-mail to you, as you will have to go to Korea to find this book, it is not available outside of Korea.

My e-mail: DodgeDuckDodge@yahoo.com

4. And what I learned over the years from talking to Kwan leaders and seniors directly.

If you can't find #1 I will post a link.

Alcohol

[Hardball]

Yea, sure my email is tommycaro@msn.com. Send me whatever you have. Great post once again!

[Balo]

Dodgeduckdodge

I'm not sure your explanation of the history of TSD MDK is correct? I studied TSD for a number of years and also for a few years as Soo Bahk do.

Reference books I have state Hwang Kee went to China and modified a soft Chinese style called Tang with styles he had learnt in Korea. (presumably with Japanese shotokan influence).

Soo Bakh do however was created based upon an ancient martial art book given to Hwang Kee by the government. It is therefore the forms and influence in this book, which made the basis for SBD.

From my own experience SBD did have some 'new' different forms from TSD, which appeared my soft in style.

[dodgeduckdodge]

Dodgeduckdodge

I'm not sure your explanation of the history of TSD MDK is correct? I studied TSD for a number of years and also for a few years as Soo Bahk do.

Reference books I have state Hwang Kee went to China and modified a soft Chinese style called Tang with styles he had learnt in Korea. (presumably with Japanese shotokan influence).

Soo Bakh do however was created based upon an ancient martial art book given to Hwang Kee by the government. It is therefore the forms and influence in this book, which made the basis for SBD.

From my own experience SBD did have some 'new' different forms from TSD, which appeared my soft in style.

I feel that my explanation is about as good as it can get. Take a look at my sources in post #6.

Alcohol

[Balo]

dodgeduckdodge

I have looked at your sources which are very interesting and also explored the net. There is obviously alot of confusion regarding the origins of TSD and what, who and how Hwang Kee learnt his martial arts.

The article below is quite interesting and suggests the Soo bahk do influences where indeed from an ancient Korean book, which was what I was told. Although the new forms are definately tia chi based.

However I find it hard to beleive all Hwangs influence was from China, as the style is so similar to Shotokan. Hwang Kee obviously has something to hide regarding his training sources, as he has contradicted himself a number of times. I am suprised however if it was all from books.

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/tang-soo-do-forms.htm

[GranFire]

dodgeduckdodge

I have looked at your sources which are very interesting and also explored the net. There is obviously alot of confusion regarding the origins of TSD and what, who and how Hwang Kee learnt his martial arts.

The article below is quite interesting and suggests the Soo bahk do influences where indeed from an ancient Korean book, which was what I was told. Although the new forms are definately tia chi based.

However I find it hard to beleive all Hwangs influence was from China, as the style is so similar to Shotokan. Hwang Kee obviously has something to hide regarding his training sources, as he has contradicted himself a number of times. I am suprised however if it was all from books.

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/tang-soo-do-forms.htm

well, considering history, early Korea has drawn a lot from China once held large territory now deep in the heart of the neighbor and to my surprise thumbing through a book on language history I learned that Korean is still spoken in large parts of Manchuria...so the Chinese influence is not that far fetched!

However, the more recent history points to a stronger Japanese presence in the MAs of Korea. And maybe a little political intervention. So the inconsistencies could stem from that area, he might have been what is usually discribed as 'collaborator' during the occupation.

[Tom Yum]

well, considering history, early Korea has drawn a lot from China once held large territory now deep in the heart of the neighbor and to my surprise thumbing through a book on language history I learned that Korean is still spoken in large parts of Manchuria...so the Chinese influence is not that far fetched!.

Manchuria itself was part of China and Korea; it exhisted under the rise and fall of various Chinese and Korean dynasties. The people separated themselves into two groups: a hot-pot of mongolian, chinese and assumably russian peoples and Koreans.

The Chinese of the northeast are comparatively larger than most; I've seen dudes from the region anywhere from 5'10" to 6'3" and ladies from 5'7" to 6'. Crazy, huh.

From wikipedia:

"Chinese dynasties in China had been influenced by or influenced on the countries or tribes in these area. Gojoseon,the ancient Korea, had influenced and reached into parts of the main land, until it collapsed down by Han Dynasty. Tang Dynasty could also manage to collapse down the toughest Korean,Goguryeo, but lost again the control on this area after couple of decads when another Korean dynasty,Balhae, was founded.

These Dynasties typically survived any Chinese dynasties that lasted at best around 200 years. After rises and falls of Korean dynasties, the other tribes had just reserved their lives in Manchuria until the Khitan,one of the tribes, set up the Liao dynasty during the Song Dynasty of the China Mainland. Later, the Jurchen (Manchu) overthrew the Liao and formed the Jin Dynasty (1115–1234), which went on to control parts of northern China and Mongolia. In 1234, the Jin Dynasty fell to the Yuan Dynasty, who were later replaced by the Ming Dynasty in 1368.

During the transition era from Song Dynasty to Ming Dynasty, the Korean dynasty,Koryeo, restored its old territory, a part of Manchuria, but failed to sustain the regime of decades. In 1644, one of the Manchu tribes overthrew the Ming Dynasty and established the Qing Dynasty (1644–1912). Overlooking the history of Manchuria, each of the tribes of Manchuria in turn had founded its country and moved or invaded into the main land of China,thus melting itself into the hot pot of Chinese culture and being largely moved into the main land of China from the most land of Manchuria. Among the tribes, the Korean Tribe, including Gojoseon, Sushen, Mohe, Buyeo, Goguryeo, and Balhae, is the only that were not melted into the hot pot of chinese culture so far."

[dodgeduckdodge]

well, considering history, early Korea has drawn a lot from China once held large territory now deep in the heart of the neighbor and to my surprise thumbing through a book on language history I learned that Korean is still spoken in large parts of Manchuria...so the Chinese influence is not that far fetched!

However, the more recent history points to a stronger Japanese presence in the MAs of Korea. And maybe a little political intervention. So the inconsistencies could stem from that area, he might have been what is usually discribed as 'collaborator' during the occupation.

They are called Choseon-jok and have been there for several hundred years. Recently while I was in Korea I watch a demonstration by Choseon-jok ladys. They demonstrated NUL, an ancient Korean see-saw game that was imported to Japan as well. I took photo's of them playing the game.

Alcohol

[GranFire]

They are called Choseon-jok and have been there for several hundred years. Recently while I was in Korea I watch a demonstration by Choseon-jok ladys. They demonstrated NUL, an ancient Korean see-saw game that was imported to Japan as well. I took photo's of them playing the game.

Alcohol

Vaguely lost as to the relevance of this to the discussion...

[dodgeduckdodge]

Vaguely lost as to the relevance of this to the discussion...

Might have had something to do with your post above where you wrote this:

"I learned that Korean is still spoken in large parts of Manchuria.."

Alcohol

[dodgeduckdodge]

Might have had something to do with your post above where you wrote this:

"I learned that Korean is still spoken in large parts of Manchuria.."

Alcohol

Did you forget to answer as well?

Alcohol