Wrestling in MMA: an attribute or a fundamental?

[adacas]

O.K. class now lets revue.

This is a wrestler.
This is a BJJ practitioner.
See a difference?

[IPON]

LOL that's not a wretsler that's a B-rated actor on roids

[adacas]

Brock Lesnar is not a B rated actor sir.
He is most definetly a C though.

[IPON]

I stand corrected LOL

[Sticksnstones]

Wrestlers (with the exception of Randy C.) have made MMA boring. Most wrestlers haven't evolved their games. Most people now realize the ways to beat wrestlers and are doing a pretty good job of it.

If you have a one diminsional game in this day and age, you're not going real far in MMA. Just ask Kevin Randleman, Mark Coleman and Mark Kerr what THEY think about that.

[MrPoopy]

I thought brock lesner was an actual wrestler before he got into the WWE?

[butcanuwrestle?]

Sticksnstones

What you've said about those mma wrestlers does hold some truth. They haven't quite evolved to the level of a Couture or Hughes. Then again you are talking about some of the best mmartists in history. Kerr, Coleman, and Randleman although talented, are no where near as talented as these 2 guys.The single biggest factor that seperates Couture and Hughes from the other wrestlers is their superior intelligence as mmartists.

Their strategy, ring-generalship, transitions of positions, timing, use of leverage, instinct, and overall fighting savy is at another level. They've made the right adjustments to their wrestling background to form a suphisticated hybrid form of mma grappling that is superior to all the rest. Their knowledge when making a transition from one dominant position to another, and the matter of efficiancy by which they do it, is unmatched.

Some of the wrestlers you mentioned have more of a "clumsy" and basic approach towards a mma fight. Perhaps it was the early success that they had when imposing their superior physical strength and raw wrestling ability that may have limited their growth in aquiring more and better technique to compete better in the future.

[adacas]

Brock Lesnar is a true blue wrestler. I just posted that picture to show the difference between the type of people who do BJJ and who wrestle. The strentgh of wrestlers is usually enough to frustrate any BJJ practitioner. Wrestlers are boring. We all know that and agree as far as I can see but they are still effective to a point. Couture is one of the best all around fighters and the boogey man in my dreams. The last time I saw a wrestler fight was quite amusing. His striking technique was horrible. His stance was wide enough to drive a truck under. He was getting slapped around. No literally he was getting slapped around but when he took it to the ground he was able to overpower the other guy who had a background in BJJ.

[jules]

The strentgh of wrestlers is usually enough to frustrate any BJJ practitioner.

Sweeping generalizations like these don't really help your argument...

[butcanuwrestle?]

jules

That depends how talented the bjj artist is. If very talented in bjj, strength alone won't be enough to frustrate the bjj artist. Ala Royce vs Severn, Bustamante vs Erickson etc. However strength and skill will cause even the most talented submission artists problems. Ala Hughes vs Newton.

[jules]

Isn't Newton a Japanese Jiu-Jitsu guy rather than a BJJ guy?

[fullcircle]

Didn't KEN Shamrock beat Severn? (Guillotine) Point made. Oh wait, he was is the WWF, I guess he's a wrestler!

[smith&wesson]

Originally posted by butcanuwrestle?
The single biggest factor that seperates Couture and Hughes from the other wrestlers is their superior intelligence as mmartists.

This might be the main point in the discussion. Couture is the smartest actor that you can find in the newer history of mma. He is always good for a surprise (that he planned weeks before the fight of course

[vandamfan]

Food for thought.

Do you guys think that a prime Royce Gracie that would be as big and strong as Couture can take Couture out?

[butcanuwrestle?]

vandamfan,

Well, I can say this. The "big" Gracie would definitely be competitive, and may possibly even beat Couture. However, the question is who can beat who more consistently? I personally feel that Couture would win more times for reasons I've already mentioned. He is talented and knows enough about avoiding submissions to win. I kinda consider Minutaro Nugeria to be the modern day "big" Royce Gracie. I'd love to see that fight. I wonder who Fedor thinks would win a fight between the two. Later