BJJ in multiple opponent situation?

[jules]

Originally posted by Great Sage
Oh... And on another note. Everyone repeated mentions UFC, Pride, K-1 fighters, etc... These guys are good because they're athletes. They've conditioned themselves and have natural attributes that surpass the norm. Such is the case for Olympic long-jumpers, runners and swimmers. Therefore, comparing yourself or your art by using professional fighters as an axiom is detrimental to the reality of fighting, as it pertains to you.

There is a reason why certain styles are destroyed in MMA competition and others are sucessful.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by jules


There is a reason why certain styles are destroyed in MMA competition and others are sucessful.

Where have you been? It's not about styles anymore... It's about the fighters themselves. The first couple UFC's featured styles, but many of the stylists weren't world class athletes. Today, we have great athletes who are skilled in all ranges of fighting. It's not a matter of style, it's a chess match, or at least a test of physical limitations.

[Maxetai]

Where have you been? It's not about styles anymore... It's about the fighters themselves. The first couple UFC's featured styles, but many of the stylists weren't world class athletes. Today, we have great athletes who are skilled in all ranges of fighting. It's not a matter of style, it's a chess match, or at least a test of physical limitations.

Great sage, I couldn't have said it better myself!

[jules]

Where have you been? It's not about styles anymore... It's about the fighters themselves.

Who basically use the same styles. The styles that have been proven to work. It's not about styles because all the useless styles have been discarded.

[FUH-Q]

wow, husanyan, that was an amazing post.......at least the others actually backed up their statements with some sort of on opinion. lol.

ok, yes, the mat is slightly softer than asphalt, but its not like a pillow. if the slam will knock you out on asphalt it will most likely knock you out on the ring floor. its not soft guys, yes you will get more cuts and bruises from asphalt but its not going to magicly add to the slam.

of course if you have acces to a weapon ur gonna use it, but these tournaments are to test hand to hand combat.....you can throw out all the what if this and what if the guy has that scenarios you want but their are other tournaments for that (phillipino martial arts and other weapons arts). these are pure and simple hand to hand so you can throw all that what if crap out the window.

also, of course there isnt anyone to throw in the towel or stop the fight in the street....but doesnt either one of those things represent LOSING the fight; what are they supposed to do, beat the person to a bloody pulp before they are considered the winner.

so if you train to fight like you would in the street that means that you guys actually stick your fingers in your partners eyes and punch him in the balls in practice. you guys must go through training partners really quick; you know with all the injuries. dont be naive, those "dirty" methods are taught in most jkd and bjj schools, but because we want to have people to train with tommorrow we dont actually apply them while training or competing. i promise that any of these guys would be quick to grab a pool stick or a bottle if it was there; the difference is they will be trained to get a better position with that weapon or get out of a really bad one if they must.

also, not all MMA tournaments are pro fighters like K1 and UFC, there are thousands of small MMA tournys all over the place and i assure you many of these guys are NOT athletes (though most are at least minor athletes) and are, in my opinion, much more entertaining and cost much less.

on a last note, any of that crap about well if you go to the ground his buddy will get you can be said about ANY fighting method, if your a kickboxer is that same buddy going to leave you alone because your a kickboxer, or if you use any other method. that same buddy could probably circle around you and then you have to fight from two different sides; doesnt sound much better to me.

i will say i dont agree with how willing some bjj people are to get on their backs, in a street fight this is horrible, but i would also point out that most good bjj schools emphasize take downs and knee to the stomach controls.



also, to any of you who say their isnt the same adrenaline rush in a MMA tourny as on the street have obviously never entered one. in my opinion its worse because rather than getting an adrenaline rush and then acting on it (street fight) you have weeks to let it way on your mind and twist your stomachs in knots for weeks. enter a tourny that actually allows full on contact and tell me the adrenaline rush isnt the same.

[HuSanYan]

Originally posted by FUH-Q
wow, husanyan, that was an amazing post.......at least the others actually backed up their statements with some sort of on opinion. lol.

always glad to help out

[IPON]

FQ - "if the slam will knock you out on asphalt it will most likely knock you out on the ring floor" I would probably say it is the opposite concrete and asphalt are not so forgiving. I would not take too much to crack your skull from a throw if you didn't fall carrectly, that same throw (and incorrect fall) maybe just a concussion in the ring.

"on a last note, any of that crap about well if you go to the ground his buddy will get you can be said about ANY fighting method"

I understand your point but like you say later the problem is while this can affect any stylist, if the philosophy is intioaionally go to the ground you are immediately comprimised if youy are presented with a multiple situation...and depending on the circumstance you may not know when that it is.

[Maxetai]

Jules,
the MMA tournaments and the like have set rules where people beforehand know what they are and can train within these set parameters (rules).
It is up to the individual or stylist if you will to apply techniques and tactics that would be effective for the given tournament (UFC, Pride, K1, etc...). This is called strategy.
Change the parameters, and you've got to change the strategy, or else...you lose.
Why doesn't a Gracie take part in boxing or wrestling or even Judo or K1????
Simple, he doesn't have the the proper strategy mapped out for him to win.
The UFC in the beginning fooled many people into thinking that it's no holes-barred fighting, but we now know that it favored the grapplers and in particular the Gracies.
Every type of tournament is great (UFC, Pride, K1...etc...), but this is not real fighting.
Tell a BJJ practitioner to go and box in the ring with a top pro boxer. Most likely the BJJ practitioner would lose. Hell, tell a wrestler to take part in a popin Karate tournament. He'll probably lose the first round.
Your point are valid Jules, but please look at the bigger picture which is a fighter fights in life where anything goes and whatever works for him, he should use it. All 4 ranges of fighting are important and must be mastered.

[jules]

The UFC in the beginning fooled many people into thinking that it's no holes-barred fighting, but we now know that it favored the grapplers and in particular the Gracies.

I don't get your logic, why did the UFC's favor grapplers/ Gracies? Because the mats are padded? Like the mats that kartakas, boxers, kickboxers, and wushu guys fight on? Besides, it's usually the grapplers who are slamming the living daylights out of strickers. Look at the rules (or shal i say the lack of rules) in the first few UFC's. How does that perfer anyone?

Every type of tournament is great (UFC, Pride, K1...etc...), but this is not real fighting.

NO one is saying it is actuall fighting, we are saying that it is the closest thing to a one on one "fight".

Tell a BJJ practitioner to go and box in the ring with a top pro boxer. Most likely the BJJ practitioner would lose. Hell, tell a wrestler to take part in a popin Karate tournament. He'll probably lose the first round.

This logic is flawed because those matches(boxing, wrestling, karate, MT,ect) the roughts of attack are limited to strickign with hands, Hand and feet only, or hands-feet-elbows-knees. And in grappling tournaments one can only grapple. In MMA this is not the case. In an MMA tournament strickers are allowed to strike and grapplers are allowed to grapple. Thus there is no preference.

[FUH-Q]

max, please explain your point. i dont see how the ufc favored grapplers.

also, that was a good point about the grapplers are usualy the one slamming people into the ground. most stand up fighters are like fish out of water on the ground and do anything to keep from going there. grapplers are the ones shooting in for takedowns.

as i said before, i believe it is a bad idea to go to your back in a street fight but if you shoot in and then take a good controlling position from the top you have effectivley taken at least one person out of the equation so you can evaluate the situation. if you stay striking you still have to deal with that same guy while trying to find out if hes got buddys. im not saying i want to go to the ground in a street fight but know that while %100 of fights start standing up %80 end on the ground. chances are you will get into the clinch at some point or maybe start beating him and he will get desperate and tackle you. what if your a strike only MA and you get into a fight with a wrestler; a good wrestler will almost definatly get you on the ground if he wants to.

[Sean Dempsey]

But what if there is broken glass on the ground and I have a THERMAL DETONATOR?!?!?!111

[Great Sage]

The original UFC's favored fighters who were skilled in all ranges of fighting. And those fighters happened to be Royce Gracie and perhaps Ken Shamrock. As I've stated before, Gracie Jiu Jitsu is rooted in a multitude of grappling and striking arts, as taught by Maeda.

UFC today is quite a different world. Now everyone is well versed in the total fight package.

[Mr. Miyagi]

No art can deal effectively with multiple opponents. No matter how hard you train you can't take on three guys unless they are handicapped or drunk. Two guys is possible if your opponents are wimps and you are tough. Three or more guys can easily have their way with you.

The guys at my bjj school are stronger and in better shape than 99% of the guys at karate, kung fu, and tkd schools. I'd rather not get punched by them and if I had to get hit, I'd rather it be by the karate guys than the bjj guys.

Practicing bjj does not make you invincible. But it gets you in good shape, hardens your body to impact, and teaches you techniques that are applicable to defense and fighting.

[ryanhall]

Did you just call Royce Gracie 'skilled in all ranges'? Give me a break. I don't recall him knocking anybody out with his incredible striking skills.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Did you just call Royce Gracie 'skilled in all ranges'? Give me a break. I don't recall him knocking anybody out with his incredible striking skills.

Well, let me rephrase it in a better way. Royce Gracie was more aware of different fighting ranges. Believe it or not, Jiu Jitsu is not limited to ground fighting, even Gracie Jiu Jitsu. There's a variety of strikes or at least strategies to counter different ranges of fighting.

You won't see Royce Gracie trying to knock anyone out because that's not working towards his strengths. He CAN box however... Royce trains regularly in western boxing (about 3 times a week).