is BJJ similar to Greco or Freestyle Wrestling?

[Panagiotis97]

I read an article about a JJ master and a Freestyle Wrestler comparing their arts, that happened long time ago before JJ becomes popular, the wrestler said that almost all of the JJ techniques are known to wrestlers...

I guess BJJ which is focused on ground fighting have to more alike to Wrestling than the Japanese JJ...

is that correct?
what are the similarities and the diffirences (techniques,capabilities,physical condition required,etc.) between BJJ and Greco/Freestyle wrestling

what should i choose given that i want it for sport and self defense

what if a BJJ and a Wrestler fight? who would win... pointless question but what the heck!

[Sean Dempsey]

I have little knowledge of wrestling firsthand, it's not something I've trained in.

But I can tell you that I've taken wrestlers who have more than double the years wrestling than I do with BJJ and I spank them. I don't know what it is, but every wrestler who I've taken, and they were all experienced non-beginnners, they've all ended up tapping to a rear naked.

Of course, if they ever stuck around to train BJJ, they might be great, but they don't. From what I could tell, they lose because they are used to going for pins and avoiding going to their backs, and they wrestle for points, so they are trying to do certain things, none of which are actually defeat their opponent in a grappling contest.

[IPON]

Re: is BJJ similar to Greco or Freestyle Wrestling?

Originally posted by Panagiotis97
I guess BJJ which is focused on ground fighting have to more alike to Wrestling than the Japanese JJ...

what should i choose given that i want it for sport and self defense

what if a BJJ and a Wrestler fight? who would win... pointless question but what the heck!

1. BJJ would be closer to judo (pre 1925) than JJJ. The lineage of Fusen Ryu JJ and Kosen Judo with an empasis of groundfighting and submissions is seen in BJJ.

2. I don't know old you are but you are unlikely to find a place to teach greco roman or freestyle wrestling outside of the HS & college years. Beyond that, wrestling is a sport that can have real world application. BJJ is a MA that people can train for sport. That is the difference.

3. I am glad you realized this was a pointless question Did you miss that last 6yrs of the UFC?? The objective of wrestling is to score point and pin your oppnents back to the mat. Alot of ground work is practiced and utilzed. BJJ the sports objective is to win by points or submission, the submission techiques used, generally speacking are illegal in wrestling. So like sean is saying if you have a pure wrestler and pure BJJ stylist BJJ will win. If it is a wrestler that is trainined in combat wrestling or has learned submission it will be a tough call. The wrestler generally will be better at the takedown and mat control but the issue will be submission (or GNP) skills.


Sean I know what you mean. Most wrestlers cannot leave the mentality of the sport behind (ie being on the back is not bad) and deal with the context of the match they are in.

[kid_chocolate]

re

Most wrestlers cannot leave the mentality of the sport behind (ie being on the back is not bad)

Going onto your back is not good either, it just is.

if you have a pure wrestler and pure BJJ stylist BJJ will win

Depends completely on the individual people.

The lineage of Fusen Ryu JJ and Kosen Judo with an empasis of groundfighting and submissions is seen in BJJ

[IPON]

Re: re

Originally posted by kid_chocolate


Going onto your back is not good either, it just is.



Depends completely on the individual people.

I didn't qualify being on your back as good I just said not bad or wrong. In a SD context I agree 100% it is not good to go to your back. But I was just giving and example and the context wasn't SD it was sport.

We are speaking in general terms, right. It will always be difficult for a pure wrestler to beat a BJJ stylist in any match sport JJ or MMA/NHB becuase of the submission aspect, even with GNP you can get trapped and armbarred. When a wrestler learns submissions yes they are formidable.


What did I say that was incorrect the question was BJJ is more like wrestling thanJJJ. I just clarified, indicating that there are/were ryu of judo and JJ which emphasized groundfighting

[Panagiotis97]

Lets not get carried away...

Is BJJ more suitable for self defence than Wrestling (Greco or Freestyle)??

are they any differences in the techniques or they both use similar locks and takedowns?

if I practice for a while in Wrestling i guess that would help me with BJJ or not?

[IPON]

Originally posted by Panagiotis97
Lets not get carried away...

Is BJJ more suitable for self defence than Wrestling (Greco or Freestyle)??

are they any differences in the techniques or they both use similar locks and takedowns?

if I practice for a while in Wrestling i guess that would help me with BJJ or not?

I already answered these questions, but here it is again:

BJJ is an MA, wrestling is a sport. BJJ=SD

Yes, philosophical and practical differences in TDs and holds. Greco Roman Wrestling is mainly throws, it does not use locks and submission. The standup aspect of Greco Roman would look more like judo than BJJ. Standup Freestyle would be more like BJJ.

Again, if a wrestling club is even available to you, it will be a good foundation for BJJ.

No Flame just trying to answer your questions

[Sean Dempsey]

Going onto your back is not good either, it just is.

Except any time you'd be forced or worked into a place where you are put to your back, wrestlers flip around onto their stomach exposing their back and neck.

I am not saying that everyone should jump to their back. What I am saying is that in the situation:

Wrestlers: stomach down
BJJ: back down

I'd take the second option over the first any day.

[shadowkiller]

I think sakuraba proved that BJJ is not invincible. He was a wrestler and beat every gracie he fought. And the entire time he was show boating. Didnt seem that he had much trouble there.

If he had maybe done some Muay Thai he could have been the best MMA's in pride. But for ground fighting he was the best.

[Sean Dempsey]

Didnt seem that he had much trouble there

I would say that taking 90 minutes to beat Royce constitutes as a "little" trouble.

[sercuerdas]

wrestling is purely based on positing and control, where bjj focuses on submissions from the start. wrestlers get tapped out so much because they have never seen the submissions before. but if a wrestler stays in submission training for three months he will learn to adapt his game. thats why wrestlers do so well in mma. they spent most of there lives training to control position that they can dictate where they will be.

[butcanuwrestle?]

Panagiotis,

They are both grappling arts, but different in their approach. Bjj emphasizes the use of proper leverage towards executing submission holds. Modern day Greco Roman and freestyle wrestling place emphasis on takedowns and pins. Greco places emphasis on take-downs from the waist up only, freestyle doesn't. Pure bjj will beat pure Greco/freestlye wrestling the majority of the times for the simple fact that G/F wrestling doesn't incorporate submission holds. Slamming the bjj stylist would probably be the wrestlers only means of executing a finishing move.

However, the irony lies in the principle that a G/F wrestler will have the upper hand when crosstraining with bjj than the other way around. History has proven this in a mma setting. Here's why. It comes down to 3 principles that work in order: 1.Control, 2.Position, 3.Execution. It’s like this; you’ll only get the most out of your execution if you first establish a strong position. Furthermore, you’ll only get the most out of your position when you have soundly controlled your opponent. F/G wrestling offer the best tools to control an opponent. For this reason F/G wrestling has become the best fundamental to build from. Although bjj may offer the finest and most effective submission holds, it becomes more difficult for the bjj stylist to execute these finishing moves against a crosstrained wrestler because they are losing the "control" battle from the get-go. In short, they can't get off. For this reason the bjj guard position has slowly been losing it's prestige as a defensive position, and it's dominance as an offensive position. It's still the most dominant defensive position on the ground, but it's not as dominant as it once was. The potential submissions from this positions have now become very predictable and more difficult to execute against world class competition. Wrestlers, like all successfull mmartist have adapted to this. Staying in the guard for the whole fight, while hoping to catch your opponent in a submission just doesn't cut it anymore. Ala Nulgeria vs Fedor, Hughes vs Newton. Taking a greater initiative towards controlling an opponent is key to gaining a more dominant position. Although Trigg was submitted by Hughes, he was very competitive when fighting for control. He just didn't lay and fall in the guard. Unfortunately for him, he lost the position battle and was submitted.

[m7777c]

I could tell you from experience - go with the wrestling.I am currently training for mma competition and my experience is only 4 years of high school wrestling. When I first walked in to the gym I train at they had me grapple with some of the fighters there.I didnt know squat about submissions and of course I got choked out with a couple of rear naked chokes. After that, 1 of the fighters just showed me a couple of techniques on submission defense and that made all the difference. I have an easier time with opponents every time i go there now because i learn a little more on learning how to feel the submissions coming and how to stop them.My experience in wrestling is hard for them (the jj guys) to deal with because my balance and control is so much better. plus the takedown and defense to the takedown isnt practiced that much in the jj classes, where in wrestling thats number 1 priority.If i was to get into a real life situation Im sure my wrestling background would come into much more effect than my jj background. and when punches are being thrown, I wouldnt want to be the guy on my back.

[Maxetai]

Panagiotis97,
If you want to learn just how to handle yourself on the ground then wrestling if fine.
If you want to learn to take someone out in addition to strikes, with submissions and chokes, then BJJ is the way to go.
I tend to agree with other members who expressed that a wrestling background first and then BJJ is the way to go.
But if you had to chose between the two, I would recommend BJJ.

[vandamfan]

Although bjj may offer the finest and most effective submission holds, it becomes more difficult for the bjj stylist to execute these finishing moves against a crosstrained wrestler because they are losing the "control" battle from the get-go. In short, they can't get off.

I must admit that this is exactly what is happening in MMA today. I was actually shocked when Fedor pummeled Nulgera by just ground and pound. It's gonna be a wrestlers game from now on. Who would of thought that wrestling would come this far in mma?