Street fighting - how to break the clinch when getting hit?

[Guest]

The best analysis of a streetfight I have seen is that it can have 3 phases:

1. Free movement - punching and kicking.
2. Standing Clinch - striking or gripping for a take down.
3. Ground

In alot of streetfights, both opponents grab each other in standing position and start pounding away. Assuming it is smart to go to the ground and you have good takedown skills, how do you get to the ground if you are getting hit or hitting in the clinch? How do you get past the barrage of strikes to get a good takedown?

Any comments?

[ryanhall]

1) Get positional advantage and you'll be the only one hitting with any respectable power.
2) Hitting or no hitting, it's not that hard to take someone to the ground.
3) If you had the good takedown skills that you refer to, I doubt that you'd have much trouble taking someone down when they are trying to punch you in the clinch.
4) It is NOT smart to go to the ground unless the other guy is the only one there.
5) There is no set technique that will allow you to win a fight.
6) Describing dynamic motion in words doesn't really work very well, so I'm not going to try it.

Actually, that was a poor description of a streetfight. You described a MMA match. Here's a better one:

1) Verbal confrontation
a. dialogue
1. threats
2. intimidation
3. argument
4. resolution (if this happens, then the situation ends)
b. adrenaline dump
1. loss of most fine-motor skills
2. decrease in pain sensation
3. warped sense of time
4. increase in the function of gross-motor skills
5. decreased cognitive ability
c. one or both parties decide to pursue the physical confrontation
2) Physical confrontation
a. first strike (made by someone)
b. all-ranges fighting
c. weapons (improvised and otherwise)
d. multiple attackers
e. Third party involvement (either for or against you)
3) Post fight
a. dealing with the police
b. tending to injuries
c. PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder)--may or may not manifest itself
d. revenge taken on the part of the loser

This chart is far from inclusive but does show that your (and most people's) original understanding of a real fight was extremely limited.

[Thai Bri]

In fairness Ryan, taking into account the limitations of the physical aspect only, he has a point. Street fights CAN get into theis "strike/clinch/ground" pattern. Most striking arts not only ignore the ground - they ignore this clinch as well.

I've seen many fights where one or both combatants hang onto each other. Not many practice their strikes whilst someone else has hold of them, along with the ancillary being pulled and pushed about.

But, like you, I agree that he is wrong to automatically try and take it to the gorund. Inb fact I'd try to do the opposite - stay standing up.

The answer? Thai Boxing covers it to an extent. And the Shredder helps a great deal too, probably more than anything. Standing Judo also contains some sweeps/trips that would be of great use (to floor him while you stay up).

I reckon this "standing grappling whilst still giving/taking strikes" area is very neglected in many of our arsenals.

[sercuerdas]

i have trained muay thai and wrestled for years. i prefer to use a wrestling clinch(bicep ties )so i can monitor boths arms and work my striking and takedown/ defense from that position.

[Guest]

Thanks Ryan, your description is very helpful. I also agree that a person should not automatically take the fight to the ground.

The question is really a technical one. If you are in a standing clinch and are on the receiving end of a barrage of strikes, how do you fight your way out? (I know it is best not to get there in the first place. But, shit happens). This situation seems to happen alot in real fights

Here are some options I am running through my head:

1. Try to punch/kick your way out or at least to a position where you are giving more punches than taking.

2. Try to get a more secure clinch where you are getting hit less.

3. Put them in your guard.

It will be hard to punch your way back to superiority and you will take alot of shots. It will be also hard to get a better clinch while a guy is holding you away and pounding. They usually hold your head or upper body. Since, your legs will probably be free, why not pull them into your guard and then a sweep if the circumstance makes sense for ground fighting.

I am not claiming this is true. It is more of a theory. The fights I have seen like this have a small window of opportunity for the guy being clinched to turn it around. This seems like a plausible approach. I could be wrong though.

[mjohnson]

unpredictable

Street fighting is unpredictable. You can't lay out anything that really happens during a fight because every fight is unique. Only thing that is true about a street fight is there is a winner and a loser.

How to avoid being struck during the take down? It's hard to do that, and almost impossible. You better know when and how to take your chances for a take down, if you want to take them down. If your in a fight, expect to get hit. I'd probably keep my distance at first, maybe weaken or distract them with some strikes or kicks, then go for the take down (considering they are a street fighter and not a Martial artists, then I would approach it different).

As far as a bicept clench to control/monitor both arms, I'm headbutting the nose, or working for a muay thai knee.

I'd probably go for the throat or the nuts at first. If I'm fighting, I'm going to win no matter what.

[ryanhall]

Bri,
We're definitely on the same page here. I think the clinch striking is really what gives Thai the edge over everything else on two feet that uses conventional striking. Add in the Shredder and some wrestling/judo, and you'll have a very serious ability to end a fight (once it has gone physical and this assumes that you haven't been KO'ed by the first strike) in close quaters.

Dave,
Stop looking for me to give you a step by step--I am not going to. How are you being held? Are you larger/smaller? Weaker/stronger? How are you being struck? What is your footing like? I cannot and will not try to explain to you the 'proper' way to get out of a situation. Anybody who does is wrong. Sorry.

If someone is throwing shot after shot at you in the clinch, you can usually get a neck tie (thai style) and hammer them with some knees and a few punches of your own. However, take care that you don't just try to stay stationary and throw knee after knee on somebody larger/stronger than you. They WILL get to you eventually (with strikes or a bear hug). You have a surprising amount of control from a good clinch, and you can swing the other guy so that he can't go to work on you with body shots.

As far as taking people down goes, if you're afraid of being hit, you really shouldn't be fighting anybody. It's going to happen whether you like it or not. I honestly can't understand why you are asking these questions if you actually have good takedown skills like the original questions states. Get control of an appendage to stop the strikes and then go for a takedown. Train it and you'll see what works for you, as well as what doesn't.

[Guest]

Ryan, if you don't want to answer questions, don't. Just stop being an ass about things. If you are in such a pissy mood, don't respond. It is a discussion, that is what the forum is for.

[ryanhall]

Dave,
I gave you an answer and you just didn't like it. That's life. Nobody can tell you what to do to deal with a dynamic situation involving unknown people. That's the way it is. As I said, anyone who tells you different is plain wrong.

Remember this phrase: "it depends." It will apply to almost everything that you will do in terms of real fighting.

[Guest]

Ryan, you are absolutely right. "It depends" is a good answer. You exercise the right option based on the situation. I was looking at all the options available. What I objected to was the tone of your replies not the information you provided.

[ryanhall]

Dave,
I didn't mean to come across as condescending in my other post. Sorry about that.

[Thai Bri]

Its his time of the month.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Which one???

MMMMMMEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOWWWWW!

[tekshow]

well here's something that might not have been said:


if you're going for a takedown, which seems like the key thing you want to discuss, you can't just cross into that range as easily as you'd think in a fight.


I mean, if the guy has a weapon and you have one too, you're going to cross that long range, then striking, then knees and elbows, before you ever get to the ground...


i don't usually worry about getting hit while doing a takedown, or i guess i haven't been hit that much while doing them...


i would strike first (and this happens in sparring too) and then while their head is recoiling from a jab or some distraction i'll cross into an "in" fighting range and go from their...


if you're in thai style then the plum/clinch is pretty easy to do. especially if you're entry is half way decent. try throwing a hook but holding on after you do so, that's half of the clinch right there.


once you're manipulating that way it's pretty easy to put on a guillotine choke or even a puta-kapala



one good point Ryan made was don't worry about getting hit, it happens and as long as you have good cover and stay active you should be pretty safe. ...



if you want to get better at it, just work on transitioning through the different ranges with a partner that has the same goals and you'll sharpen it up...



-peace-
joe