BJJ points system

[CKD]

According to Carley Gracie in the old days http://www.gracie.com/pubs/riostory1.html they had the option of taking off the kimono and have striking in the sport championships! That seems like it would be interesting. In the WCC in the little commercial things they give for each martial art, in the bjj one I saw to people fighting with strikes even though the setting was a sport bjj place and they were both bjj fighters. Now I know why.

[Thai Bri]

Bri Thai, there is no perfect way to train for real self-defense, I'm sure you're aware of this.

What is your suggestion for BJJ? That every tournament become NHB with weapons such as knifes and guns allowed? Occasionally would multiple attackers be alllowed to team up on one person? That's the only REAL way to train for self-defense.

Bri, would you not at least agree that dominant position is crucial in a fight? From the mount, sidemount, and the back, it's most easy to strike someone, bite them, choke them, gouge the eyes, etc. Yes, the point system has many faults, but at its core it promotes establishing dominant positions.

The great thing about BJJ is its dominance on the ground. Thats about it. To preserve what it already has, I would not go to this "points for position" type nonsense. It is becoming a game. Like Karate, Kung Fu and TKD.

[Tcell]

Bri,
I think you're missing the point of points in BJJ (no pun).

The points only really apply in a competition.

When you've got two guys who are evenly matched & can't finish the opponent by the end of the round/competition then it goes to points.
Like in Boxing/Thai boxing/MMA or most full contact martial sports(not sure about Wrestling or Abu Dhabi).
It's just a way of keeping score (hence the word points).

It's either that or have matches that last for hours, which isn't very realistic if you've got 240+ people fighting on the same day.

So I don't think having a points scoring system 'dilutes' the BJJ,I still think the aim is to sub the other person but you can't always do that in 'X' amount of minutes so you have to go to points.

Cheers Jez

[Thai Bri]

One of us is missing the point mate.

People will train to win these competitions. They want the kudos of the trophies. So the develop tactics and strategies to win under these rules. That becomes their focus, instead of developing tactics and strategies to save their lives.

And, of course, the tactics and strategies are different of each are different.

[Tcell]

Bri,

Just to add to what I posted before.

If I just train for position (points) then most of the time I'm going to lose.
Therefore there's not a lot of point in training/competeing.

I think you'll find most people who train BJJ want to tap you out,the same way as Boxers want the K.O.It's just that you can't always get that.

If you're still not sure about what I'm saying take an evening & go & roll at a BJJ club.That will probaly convince you that it's more about the sub than the points.

However if you're talking about BJJ in relation to SD then things are a bit different.

Unlike a competition/rolling where I don't mind being on my back too much (still prefer to be on top but I guess I'm old fashioned) the last place I want to be on the street (assuming you can take me down -sprawl baby-)
is on my back.Therefore if I were a 'points' player my forte would be control/dominant position.Knee on stomache,back ride,mount,side control, any of those & you're eating slaps,forearms & elbows.



Cheers Jez

[Thai Bri]

I've done a little grappling mate ( www.maxt.co.uk )

Don't think I'm dissin' it. I'm just concerned that it will end up an empty gae.

Remember, even Karate was once a deadly art. Now look at the state of it?

[Tcell]

Bri,

I sort of understand what you're on about concerning points & how a lot of M.A's that have points competitions devolve into a game of tag,with no real combat relevance.

However, to even get points in a BJJ competition you've got to be phsyically able to conrtol your oppenent (be it through strength or skill).
I think this will translate through to a real encounter.

BJJ is by no means a complete art, but it is one of the best at what it does.
Points or no.

Cheers Jez

[Thai Bri]

Agreed. I just want them to keep it that way!

[Mr. Miyagi]

Wardancer, I didn't mean to imply that someone can strike back at you effectively if you're mounted on them or have their back. I'm talking about getting and establishing those positions, but not being able to finish the fight from there.
Obviously Wallid didn't lose to Shoji while he was mounted on him, he lost later after Shoji had escaped the mount twice and was beating him up standing.
Even in the earliest days of MMA there were some problems with pure bjj in MMA situations. Mario Sperry had Igor Zinoviev down and mounted but Igor escaped. Then Igor gave his back while standing and held the fence to avoid getting taken down again, throwing elbows at Mario who was clinched at his back. Eventually Mario got frustrated and then Igor caught him with some good shots ending the fight. In that same event George Costanza Gracie was fighting John Lewis and Lewis did the same thing as Igor, after escaping from being underneath Gracie on the ground, held the fence to stay up. Gracie could do nothing to him from there and that fight turned into a snoozefest.
When Wallid fought in the UFC against Takahashi he also could not get him down as Takahashi held onto the fence. He worked so hard to get him down and eventually tired himself out leaving Takahashi the last few minutes to pummel him and win the decision.
Carlos Barreto had Dave Beneteau's back early in his fight with him and wasn't able to hurt him or sub him from there, and eventually lost a close decision to him.

My point is that in a sport match you get rewarded for these advantageous positions with lots of points. There are too many instances of bjj fighters getting these positions in MMA and getting nowhere with them.

This relates to streetfighting and self defense too. If there is a railing or table around and your opponent grabs it, he's not going to be so easy to take down. And if he's a better puncher than you and stronger than you, you could be in trouble.
Even Rickson had trouble with someone who was a novice grappler in comparison when he fought Yamamoto, because you can't take a guy down if he's holding the ropes. Rickson had to throw him out of the ring to get out of that situation.

As I said before, the bjj points system is a good guideline. As Thai Bri pointed out, people are playing the points game too much these days. I've seen bjj guys that were not the greatest finishers get a takedown and pass guard, then actually allow the opponent to reclaim guard (no points for that) so they could try to pass it again and get more points.

[CKD]

You could find more fights that win from a dominant position than without. There are a few exceptions but much more is won from the dominant position than having the person escape and win. Besides that ussually when they escape they end up in a better position don't they?

[IPON]

It's either that or have matches that last for hours, which isn't very realistic if you've got 240+ people fighting on the same day.

Good Point.

I will throw this out for everyone, what about no point system, wins would be based on submission or forfiet. If there were ties well they would just be ties or maybe limited OT (1 minute) with judge decision.

[wardancer]

Bri,
I think you're missing the point of points in BJJ (no pun).

The points only really apply in a competition.

When you've got two guys who are evenly matched & can't finish the opponent by the end of the round/competition then it goes to points.
Like in Boxing/Thai boxing/MMA or most full contact martial sports(not sure about Wrestling or Abu Dhabi).
It's just a way of keeping score (hence the word points).

It's either that or have matches that last for hours, which isn't very realistic if you've got 240+ people fighting on the same day.

So I don't think having a points scoring system 'dilutes' the BJJ,I still think the aim is to sub the other person but you can't always do that in 'X' amount of minutes so you have to go to points.

Cheers Jez

I will have to agree with Tcell,
I would love to see any BJJ fight ending in a submission.
But it is hard to achieve that in 5 minutes fight (time limit due to competition timetable) and that is hard to 'pull' a sub move on an opponent that have 'equal' skills level.
Points systems is the only way in such case.
I think Thai Bri point of view about point system can relate to any thing in life really: we should not be rewarded for our efforts because according to him it does not mean much!

[sherwinc]

The points system in BJJ will kill it off as an effective real fighting art.

Discuss!

comparing BJJ and Japanese JuiJitsu,

i think Japanese Juijitsu will be the brutal kind of art compare to BJJ

[wardancer]

Wardancer, I didn't mean to imply that someone can strike back at you effectively if you're mounted on them or have their back. I'm talking about getting and establishing those positions, but not being able to finish the fight from there.

My point is that in a sport match you get rewarded for these advantageous positions with lots of points. There are too many instances of bjj fighters getting these positions in MMA and getting nowhere with them.

As I said before, the bjj points system is a good guideline. As Thai Bri pointed out, people are playing the points game too much these days. I've seen bjj guys that were not the greatest finishers get a takedown and pass guard, then actually allow the opponent to reclaim guard (no points for that) so they could try to pass it again and get more points.

Point taken Mr.Myagi.
But the lack of finishing should be blame on the fighter skills not the BJJ sport point rules.
It is like saying a boxer kept 'playing' cat and mouse with his opponent to secure a 'sure' win rather to go for a K.O win. Most time trying too hard for a K.O or Sub will leave open to your opponent to take advantage. It does make the point system inferior to street fight?

[sherwinc]

what does means??????