How would Kimura and Carlson do in modern mma + old judo vs new

[CKD]

This is the first double thread thingy. O.k......
First topic
How would Kimura and Helio do in modern mma? I think Kimura would do great if he practiced more without a gi. A rarely known fact is that he fought a vale tudo match with Waldemear Santana, the other man who beat Helio. He beat him in a sport jiu-jitsu match and then drew with him in vale tudo. Kimura probaly would have won the fight but he slipped during the throw and was attacked by Waldemear with punches and three headbutts and on the fourth he peformed a atemi waza strike bloodying Waldemear. They then fought to a draw. Kimura was at an unfair advantage during his fight because of his age. Kimura throwing schools would often give students concussions, his groundwork was better than Helio, and he was a decent striker. I believe he would have done well in todays mma world. Carlson Gracie has beat Waldemear and drawn with him but was closer to his age. Carlson has trained some of the best fighters in the world. He grew up in the golden age of the vt aspect of BJJ and he had good striking skills despite not crosstraining. I believe he would also do good.
Topic 2
Can someone tell me the main differences between the old judo and new. I know a few differences.
1.Old Judo had better groundwork. Helio even said he didn't changed any techniques but just preserved them and made them better.
2.Striking was more of a part of judo. The strategy of BJJ fighters in mma is disturbingly similar to Maedas plan even though Helio claimed Maeda never taught him strikes. The strategy of using a low kick to close the distance is the same thing Maeda did in his mma fights.
3.In the article Helio Gracie Potrait of a master by Don Beu it said Helio did not learn the "current contest-oriented judo but an earlier form with an emphasis on the goshin-no-kata self defense forms."

[IPON]

CKD good post and good questions. I did not know that Kimura fought Santana.

Kano studied Tenshin shinyo ryu and Kito ryu Jujutsu, I believe it was the latter concentrated on throws and the former the striking , strangulation etc ( I maybe wrong). In any case, after beating other Jujutsu ryu the Kodokan was created. I should mention that we always discuss fairness, so in fairness Jujutsu lost to judo by judo rules not NHB rules. The Kodokan was challenged by the Fusen Ryu. See below

“When Kodokan Judo faced off against the Fusen Ryu Jujutsu, the Jujutsuka realized that there was no way they could defeat the Kodokan Judoka on an even footing in a regular standing Randori, thus they decided to use a very sneaky tactic. According to one source, when the Kodokan men and the Fusen Ryu men squared off, the Jujutsuka immediately laid down on the ground. The Kodokan men didn't know what to do, then the Fusen Ryu practitioners took them to the ground and used chokes and ground joint lock to win the matches. This was the first real loss that the Kodokan had known in eight years.

Kano took this to mean that if they were going to continue matching other Jujutsu schools they needed a full range of laying techniques. Thus with friends of other Jujutsu systems, among them being Fusen Ryu practitioners, Kano over the next six years formulated the Ne Waza of Kodokan Judo which included three divisions; Katame Waza (locking techniques), Shime Waza (choking techniques), and Osae Waza (holding techniques).”

Kano after the loss incorporated Fusen Ryu technique. What Helio learned is from this period, as Maeda was sent out to teach judo. Maybe Helio was not taught strike but I am sure his brother was. The strikes in the SD book all very basic and Jujutsu like, If he did not learn directly or indirectly who did he borrow the technique from?? Helio stated he never learned any form of Karate, I am sure there were other schools of jujitsu it is possible he learned there but more likely from Carlos who learned from Maeda

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/maeda.html

Here is a question I wonder who would win Kano or Helio. I nevr saw kano as a fighter...guess that's another thread


I can’t type anymore I need sleep – sorry if this is ramblings

[CKD]

Here is a bio of Kimura which tells about his fight with Santana http://www.judoinfo.com/kimura3.htmFor all those too lazy to read the article Here it is
"Valetudo in Brazil 1959


Kimura went to Brazil in 1959 to have his last Professional Judo/Wrestling tour. He was challenged by Aldemar Santana. Santana was champion of Gracie Jiujitsu, Capoeira, and boxing. He was 27 years old, 6 feet and 205 lbs. In 1958, Santana knocked out Helio Gracie in a fight lasting 3 hours 45 minutes. Kimura threw Santana with Seoinage, Hanegoshi, Osotogari; then, he applied Ude-garami, and won the match.

Shortly after, Santana challenged Kimura to have a rematch for Vale-tudo. (Everything goes, as it is equivalent to Ultimate Fighting Championship.)

On the day of the competition, there were 10,000 spectators present. From the beginning, Kimura realized that Santana punched and kicked much better. The only chance was newaza. Kimura made a mistake, and tried to throw Seoinage. Since both of them were soaked in sweat, without Judogis, Kimura fell to the mat. Santana followed with a straight punch and head-butt to Kimura's stomach, not once or twice, but three times. Kimura was stunned; however, he maintained his nerve and waited for his chance to counter. When Santana tried to head-butt for the fourth time, Kimura punched Santana's forehead-between the eyes-with all his strength. Santana, his face covered in blood, retreated.

Kimura got up from the mat and chased Santana. The fight lasted for 40 minutes with a draw, as both of them were exhausted, unable to do complete damage. Kimura was 42 years old at the time."

Him being able to draw with despite such an age difference with Santana is defenitely a verification of his skill. He was one of Carlsons Gracie toughest opponents and I have no doubt that Carlson could probaly make it to the top of the mma world today. He was pretty much untouchable in those days.

[CKD]

Any other opinions? I have recently found out about another student of Maeda stuck to maedas original method and he teaches in Brazil. There is not much of a difference between his art and the Gracies in fact his students compete in the Mundials. I am planning to do some research on the old style judoka through books published at the time. It is sad to imagine that the old style judo died out because if it didn't I would imagine they would do great in mma. Imagine it a fighter with the takedowns of a judoka, the groundwork of a BJJ artist and decent striking. The last person from old style judo to compete in mma was Nishi who was a student of Kimuras. Rickson said he was the best fighter in the tournament he fought in.